F55: F5 & FS7: LUT's locked out of color controls

L

Lenilenapi

Carbonite Member
As I wait for my FS7 the only thing that really bugs me is the way Sony has locked out the use of any white balance controls when using Slog 2 or 3 with LUTs. I'm surprised it doesn't seem to bother other people more on these boards though I just got off the phone with a San Francisco rental house DIT and he said it drives them crazy and he has been complaining to Sony for ages. He also had no idea if it was a technical issue or just Sony's strange concept of how a "film" camera is supposed to function.

This thread is for people to comment on this issue- not technical snafus ,favorite settings slog2 vs 3 , or why Sony color sucks. If others agree I would like us all to contact Sony demanding a change.

Oh yeah - Warning - this is a RANT.

Just to review :

In Custom mode you have access to white balance functions including adjustable Kelvin and green-magenta shifts but no access to VF and Monitor LUTs or to baking in LUTS like 709 800% or 709Type A .
In Cine EI mode you have the LUTS and baking in abilities, but are locked out of white balance , Kelvin etc and instead only have 3 presets 3200, 4800 and 5600. Also locked out of noise reduction.

Alexa and RED both give you access to both at the same and the new Panasonic 35mm camera advertises grading in camera. You can bet the upcoming C300 upgrade won't do this either.

Why does it bother me?
1- I want to be able to show my clients something close to their final picture and especially under fluorescents or mixed light we'll be looking at green. Howcum they don't have to see that with an Alexa? Even with a RED I can dial it out. I want to be able to sell this camera not apologize.

2 - Under mixed lighting in particular its important to be able to gel your lights to work with the prevailing hue - especially in a fluorescent room. Even mixing brands of LED's ,Flo's or using HMI's is tricky. You need a monitor to be able to do that right. So you need a LUT.

3 - I go off the preset color balances often to adjust to windows, exteriors under cloud or blue skylight, or whenever I might want a warm or cool look. That's why I get hired, because I have a sensitive eye.

I give that up entirely without a LUT and pray that someone in Post will be a mind reader. But most clients using sub $10K cameras don't pay for skilled color correction. Its usually the editor and that's often the client. Most of them don't have a clue about color !

4 - The baked in LUT ability of the camera could be a goldmine as far as clients wanting beautiful take home 709 images . It could be that C300 killer we all want. But that's terribly hobbled if I can't dial in decent color.

4- If I opt for CUSTOM mode for the white balance, not only don't I have a Monitor LUT for lighting and clients, but I am locked out of using the VF-LUT as a tool for proper exposure of Slog. Allister Chapman has a good argument for the VF LUT using zebras as the best way to easily control exposure in Slog.

5 - Even if I''m not baking in the LUT, the metadata allows POST to start with my look.

Don't tell me I'm free to use Hypergammas or 709 with color control, I want this camera for the SLog3 look. That's what I'm selling . Don't tell me its designed for RAW - because most people aren't shooting RAW, and anyway its a LUT its not baked in.

No one has expressed a good technical reason for why Sony has done this. If you can switch between 3200, 4800 and 5600 in CINE EI i imagine you to be able to go to variable Kelvins & throw in a little Green-Magenta correction as well.

I don't know if it would be better for Sony to unlock the LUT's in CUSTOM or Unlock white balance in CINE EI but please do one or the other. I can understand that messing with the contrast and black levels could screw up the LUT, but not minor color correction.

Color Routes for post and in camera seems to me to still be the missing link in Sony's Slog system. Let's encourage them to step up to the plate. (Currently I'm thinking of buying a bunch of filters to add warmth, cooling and magenta offset, but its annoying to have to do so.)

Comments?

Lenny


 
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My only workaround (and granted it isn't the best) would be to shoot in Custom Mode with SLog3 gamma and S-Gamut3.Cine Color Space. View, or show your clients, output through an external monitor with LUTs or use something like an AJA LUT Box to load your 3D LUTs and view on the external monitor.

I can understand locking out NR in CineEI mode because frankly I (and others who have posted similar comments) would prefer NR in post.

My criticism is in CineEI mode changing EI settings isn't as easy as on the F5/55 where you can just dial in your EI. On the FS-7, it is via the Gain switch, meaning you would need to set L-M-H via menu selections.

Ned
 
It really is due to the RAW/CineEI mode on the F5/F55, because if you shoot RAW, the desired white balance can easily come later in post.

Once Sony enabled XAVC for CineEI mode, it created this problem of not having any white balance capability if for when you are not shooting RAW. So the question is why do you need CineEI mode if you want to set white balance, ISO, etc.. .really in my opinion Sony should have enabled LUTs in ALL modes.. I have not yet heard a good reason for the lack of LUTs in custom mode.
 
I dont see it as a problem. (Sure full control would be nicer)

Simple. Cine Mode says 'I am going to grade this'

Those three temps and a 10 or more bit space will get you the right colour after your grade it without.

Best is to spend time on set shooting a grey or gregtag card - you can then correct properly particularly a gregtag card and Resolve.

Do the alexa and red have tint control in camera? Im not aware of it.

As for the director, yes we have an issue unless you have some pre built LUTs like 'flouro green' etc.

S
 
nsoltz said:
shoot in Custom Mode with SLog3 View, or show your clients, output through an external monitor with LUTs or use something like an AJA LUT Box to load your 3D LUTs and view on the external monitor.

I can understand locking out NR in CineEI mode because frankly I (and others who have posted similar comments) would prefer NR in post.
Click to expand...

Its a drag to have to get a monitor with LUTs or an AJA Box when the competition makes it easy.
Re NR, why not just make it a choice?
 
As for NR it is (AFAIK) well established that this is best done in post - so when you have selected the mode in the camera that says 'I am going to grade' then why have it available.

It should also be remembered that some operators are really helped by everything being switched off.

For example I dont know my way round a C300 too much and could easily come unstuck if I rented a C300 and NRandSharpening had been left on - safer to have a mode that just turns all that stuff off, it could be called Cine mode, Oh it is.

S
 
Morgan, - Do you grade your own shooting?
If so great, but most DP's don't - they often hand off to someone who might as well be blind.

Many independents don't have Neat video and its very slow.
I've just gotten off a long series of emails with a client who just didn't get how easy it was to add a little sharpening because we kept the detail down for a green screen and was all upset that a picture looked too warm and saturated. The fixes took me about a minute. I want to give her the best thing I can from the get go. I want her to say "wow the look that Lenny gets from the camera is phenomenal." I don't want to have to go back to hypergammas for no good reason.
That's just the way it is out there. You're lucky if you don't have to deal with that.

Also how do you gel lights when there is mixed lighting? Its hard to see without an adjusted monitor. I'm often throwing a 1/8 to 1/4 green or Magenta on my sources. LED's and FLO's are all over the map.

Re the C300 - If you don't know you're way around the menus then keep a preset mode, but if you do , why in the world should you be locked out of it.

Yes Alexa and RED have Tint control. On RED you have to find it in the menus , and both have white balance buttons though RED's is not the greatest.
 
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In Sonys head this mode is for those who have a professional workflow - if you are hand ing off to a inexperienced client then use the cam in 709 - that is what Sony would say.

As for gelling lights - I've never had a good enough monitor to see anything subtle anyway - So mainly I do my best and crave better tech in the future - personally the biggest leap in tech is the gretag facility in resolve - admittedly that doesn't help you match sources - generally I don't have time for that anyway or just go by feel and eye .. Or the rgb histo I have on a stills cam - usually I have a Dslr on set. Why did my 2008 5d have rgb histo and f55 not have it? #onlysony!
 
Overall I would like to see LUTs work in custom mode.

I can pick my ISO, dial in WB, enable NR, turn matrix off, and turn LUT on for monitoring by other people on set there to do their job. Period.

I'm with you Lenilenapi !!
 
Of course - it's "your" camera and should do as you want - i
I'm serous about that - not joking - should be configurable via an app etc - we should all be able to set it to our preferred settings..personally id keep them very minimal.

in stills my d600 I have only ever changed the iso and shutter speed - I've never been in the menu at all! Obviously with non raw one needs to control wb too..
 
Just for info, we're told that noise reduction in cineEI mode will be enabled on the F5/55 with firmware 5.0 due at the end of the year. I've no idea if Sony will do the same on the FS7 at some point.

I haven't personally been bothered by the lack of colour control in CineEI, although I can see it might be useful when burning a LUT into an internal record.

If it's just for making the directors monitor look slightly better, I'd rather Sony work on other stuff first!
 
morgan_moore said:
In Sonys head this mode is for those who have a professional workflow - if you are hand ing off to a inexperienced client then use the cam in 709 - that is what Sony would say.
Click to expand...

"In Sony's head" is the operative word here and that's where I suspect they just don't get how things work in the real world. I've been in this business 30 years, and every professional I know bemoans the workflow of many of his clients - even if they're using Resolve. So just let this camera look as good as it is capable of looking - why tie our hands?

morgan_moore said:
As for gelling lights - I've never had a good enough monitor to see anything subtle anyway - So mainly I do my best and crave better tech in the future - personally the biggest leap in tech is the gretag facility in resolve - admittedly that doesn't help you match sources - generally I don't have time for that anyway or just go by feel and eye .. Or the rgb histo I have on a stills cam - usually I have a Dslr on set. Why did my 2008 5d have rgb histo and f55 not have it? #onlysony!
Click to expand...

I guess we all work in different ways. I'm old school and always have a good monitor with me along with a big bag of gels. If you don't light it correctly in the first place, you can only do so much in POST, especially in mixed light which you just can't judge by eye.
 
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You bring up a bunch of good issues here. Really I dont have time to comment properly.. going shooting :)


I suspect they just don't get how things work in the real world.
Sony stuff works in a 'real world' - mainly broadcast and their thinking can feel skew if you operate in another world (I do)

The thinking has become even more skew as users have pushed FW requests on the 5/55

I've been in this business 30 years,

Good and bad - it might be time to think through your workflows.

why tie our hands?

Surely the cams have all the normal facilities for 'painting' the camera in 709 mode

I'm old school and always have a good monitor with me along with a big bag of gels

Well unless the monitor is in a black tent it is unlikely to be good on set

Gotta run! Good to chat..!
 
Actually I don't think Sony came up with Slog for broadcast at all. I think it was for what they perceive as "high end film-like production" But that's where I suspect they don't understand how typical DP's work. RED and Alexa were way ahead on that immediately.

Don't get what you mean by a black tent unless you're talking about exteriors -
Sure - I don't always have a monitor outside - though if they the show warrants production value I've used a tent plenty of times.
Generally exteriors are more amendable to a preset approach to color though.
I'm thinking about lit interiors.

"I've been in this business 30 years,
Good and bad - it might be time to think through your workflows."

Haha :) Spoken like a true youngster. Never discount the value of experience though.
Most of us grey-heads are always rethinking our workflows - just don't want them to get worse.
That's what we're doing here I hope.
 
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My personal experience from having my F3 locked in S-log mode for the last two years and never shot without it it has really made my shooting easier. I never have to bother if I have the right settings in order words I'm avoiding to frak up. With my previous camera AF100 I spent so much time to squeeze the juice out of that camera but on the F3 I don't have to do anything. It's so refreshing really and I can put time into compositing my shots instead.

Looking at it from a client perspective I can certainly see that if your not used to working with LOG footage either on set or in post it is a problem and a good LUT could solve alot of issues. Hence I deliver already graded footage as much as I can.

I don't need a monitor to see if my shot will look good or not. I just have to use my eyes and set the correct exposure and select 3200k or 5600k. But for my clients I often hear that they look at the LCD screen and see one ugly LOG image. The upside is when I hand over the graded footage and it looks stellar they are happy.

The use of LUTs to me is a mixed bag. It can provide you with a good view of how it CAN be graded but I have so many ways in how to grade dependable on how the footage looks, so to me I don't see any LUT to work with all types of shots.

With that said sure it would be nice if Sony could unlock all functions in all modes and give you the choice to still have it locked down or open. Honestly I find my 2 stops/6 stops ND filter a bigger issue than shooting in locked LOG mode. But that's just me!
 
Wow - so you typically take the footage home, grade everything and then send it to the producer?
That's a workflow that's new to me , but I can see how it would work in log just fine.
Is that common for guys on this forum?

Sounds like a lot of extra work. How do you find the time? I assume they're not paying you extra are they?

i can see how in some ways it would simplify your life to not worry about "squeezing the juice out of that camera."
It all depends on the situation though. Just give us the choice.
 
For a days shoot I'll maybe spend about one hour (paid) to do a pre-grade and then when the final edit is done I do a final grade if needed (also paid). This works for what I do but might not work for others. I just want to hand over footage that's great looking and without the bad takes.
 
Same for me usually. I always try to work out a way of me checking the footage before I hand it over and if it is a multicam shoot to at least try to provide custom luts to match.

With Red footage I would alter the RMD metadata files that come with the r3d rushes to make them look pretty.
 
yup.....d/l'ing the .mxf and converting it to ProRes via Resolve, before injest to Media Composer, it's de riguer for me to apply a base CC. Even for dailies, seems there's always time to throw on an initial grade.
 
This is fascinating to me!
I've never done anything but copy original files on a hard drive to my producer at the end of the shoot. Occasionally I take it home if there is no time or when they forgot to bring a drive. So with F3 for example - I usually just copy the SxS card & that's it. Occasionall transfer to XDCAM MOVs. Never take the step to ProRes.
If using a Samurai or PIX we'll download the files but never go into resolve and do a grade first.

That starts to explain a lot to me . Many of my clients and ( that goes for fellow shooters out here in SF) don't want to bother with log because they don't want to deal with the CC hassles. But you guys are taking care of that for them . Talk about a different workflow! It would solve at least some of my issues if my clients would go for it.

Even with Red, it usually goes to a Red rocket guy but the DP is rarely there to supervise.

I'd like to ask a few more questions about this if you have time:

- What kinds of projects are these typically?

- Do you charge extra for making a grade ?

- Do they expect this service, or is it something you negotiate with them - is it something specifically for Log shooting?

- Do you do this on set or afterwards at home?

- Are you billing extra for this service ? Do you only do it with Log or for everything.

- What kind of rates in general are you charging clients when you work this way (separate labor and camera if possible?

- What if you get busy or the days are long , how do you find the time?

- Are you typically using Resolve? - On what kind of gear - a laptop on location or in a hotel room?
With just a mouse or a wheeled panel?

Thanks for the info.
 
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