Europe HVX200E

[Danilo Del Tufo]

Spz also official panasonic broadcast forum is like a cemetery...hope somethin' of unbelievable will happen...a new camera with great improvements...all this silence oughta means something, and I'm tired to think only bad things.
I wanna hear great news!
C'mon Panasonic give us a PAL masterpiece!

 

[harddrive]

Anders posted this on another thread, which I thought was informative.

"Originally Posted by Anders Holck
Yes, there is a good chance that the codecs will have increased horizontal resolution 1440x1080 and just maybe 1280x720. But because of the resolution of the CCD's you should not expect any gain in Luma res. But increased Chroma res (100 extra horisontal pixels in 1080) is pretty nice....."

I would see 720p/50 having horizontal resolution of 1280 as a VERY positive thing. What pixel shifting does is increase luminance resolution (though not chrominance) above what may be expected from the basic pixel numbers. With 960 horizontal pixels, pixel shift should indeed give (luminance) resolution worth recording up to 1280. Same as the Z1.

 

[Anders Holck]

Please note that all this is PURE speculation, no info has beeen released on the subject. So until any announcement from Panasonic I think we should await the 720p50 format to be 960x720....

 

[FREUDENBERG_FILMS]

(Danilo Del Tufo) a new camera with great improvements...all this silence oughta means something, and I'm tired to think only bad things.
I wanna hear great news!
C'mon Panasonic give us a PAL masterpiece!

I second that, too worried not knowing what HD camera too buy.... We just sold our house and made a nice return. Have the money to buy a new HD camera but a little worried on buying a POS.... Common Panasonic give us back some trust!

:dankk2:

 

[booth]

Still no news? We are on the 14th! 3 daYS untill the launch date! This looks worse than an Apple announcement!

3 days before launch? I thought it was launched on the 24th?

 

[Anders Holck]

I think it is delivered on the 24'th - I also heard official release from Panasonic on the 17'th

 

[jazzx]

Guys, I'm curious as to where you're getting these dates. except than on a telephone, can you point me at at least one official web site or dealer stating the 17th or 24th? or is all your information based on Panasonic people on the telephone?

Thanks

 

[theos]

My dealer has said 17th, and I spoke to a Panasonic rep that was in the shop when I called and he said 17th too. All was on schedule until a few days ago . . . lets hope it still is.

 

[JanBee]

They have a PAL model on the Panasonic CeBIT booth in Hall 1 - but they did not let me look at it, it was for Panasonic Resellers only. :-/

If you're in Hannover tommorrow and have a flame thrower - I'm in!

 

[MAS]

jo JanBee, may i say: "typisch deutsch!". sadly i`m out of flamethrowers lately. :violent5:
have fun in hannover
MAS

 

[mmm]

I just putting in a good word for Proactive in the UK for anyone looking for a dealer.

I don't work for them BTW, but just been in there today and they were exceptionally good. They have a small testing studio with an XLH1, HD100 and Z1 already.

They are very good on price too. Tell them I (Mike Marriage) sent yourogar-BigGrin(DBG)

http://www.proav.co.uk

 

[SPZ]

I would see 720p/50 having horizontal resolution of 1280 as a VERY positive thing. What pixel shifting does is increase luminance resolution (though not chrominance) above what may be expected from the basic pixel numbers. With 960 horizontal pixels, pixel shift should indeed give (luminance) resolution worth recording up to 1280. Same as the Z1.

While this would be better for the codec in general, i'm very skepticall about our gains in therms of picture quality. I've seen the beautiful results of 960 v 720 picture on the HVX. Rich colors, definetly a lot better than 4:2:0. I've also seen the HVX's 1080p, and, frankly, it is a lot worse in therms of color than 720P. So I'm really scared of losing color information if the stretching to 1280 v 720 makes the same consessions as the 1080P signal... I'm very happy with 960 lines, really... (don't forget, we're talking about a 920 / 540 ccd's here... Don't stretch it!

 

[Barry_Green]

I've also seen the HVX's 1080p, and, frankly, it is a lot worse in therms of color than 720P. So I'm really scared of losing color information if the stretching to 1280 v 720 makes the same consessions as the 1080P signal...

Okay, I've got to admit I'm puzzled. What are you seeing that makes you say this?

1080 looks *exactly* the same as 720, color-wise. Only difference is the recorded color resolution is higher in 1080. 1080 records color more cleanly than 720 does.

Here's the identical exact same shot, 1080 and 720. Am I supposed to see one of them being less, in terms of color, than the other?

For those who want to experiment, here's the original frames taken as a raw uncompressed still from the FCP timeline:

http://www.fiftv.com/HVX200/color-720.bmp

http://www.fiftv.com/HVX200/color-1080.bmp

Those are uncompressed, un-stretched, straight-from-the-camera shots of the identical same subject. I juiced up the color by using cine-matrix and color level +4.

What are you seeing in the 720 shot that's better than the 1080?

As far as I can tell they look about the same to me, definitely the same hues and saturation, but the 1080 is a lot bigger which makes for proportionately better color -- i.e., cleaner edges between colored objects. Blowing 'em up in photoshop, you can blow up the 1080 picture to 200% and the 720p picture to 300%, that'll give you equivalent size displays, and then you can easily see that displayed at that size, the 1080 just looks better. Like it should. If you view them at 100% they look very comparable to each other.

If I'm crazy, let me know. But I haven't found a circumstance yet where 720 looks better than 1080. I typically shoot in 1080 whenever I have enough card time, and only resort to 720 when I need the extra card space.

 

[joe 1008]

Hey, everybody:

I just got drunk with my neighbor in Santo Domingo. We are living door by door for a couple of month and we never met personally. Today Dominican Republic has beaten Venezuela 2:1 and we met casually in a colmado while the game was running. Anyway: He told me he bought a HD100 and I told him I´m a HVX aficionado. Here in Santo Domingo they are running TV-spots promoting the HVX and there is´nt any HVX to buy, yet !!! Anyway: HD (ANY FORMAT) llegó! I bet for the colours we have here in the caribbeans the HVX will be the winner. No mpg2-codec that can hold up with our colours!
By the way: I uprezzed the posts of Barry and 1080 is ways sharper than 720. On a small computer screen you might not bother but I´m convinced that on a larger screen 1080 is decisively sharper. But that videolishly outburned highlight is really ugly. It´s still video after all.
Hopefully that I can compare the cams sooner or later. C.U.

P.S.

Tomorrow: Cuba vs. Puerto Rico: Vencerémos!!! (I bet 500 pesos that Cuba wins against of one of those cuban Fidel-haters that live here - but let´s keep politics out of here...)

 

[SPZ]

Okay, I've got to admit I'm puzzled. What are you seeing that makes you say this?

1080 looks *exactly* the same as 720, color-wise. Only difference is the recorded color resolution is higher in 1080. 1080 records color more cleanly than 720 does.

Here's the identical exact same shot, 1080 and 720. Am I supposed to see one of them being less, in terms of color, than the other?

For those who want to experiment, here's the original frames taken as a raw uncompressed still from the FCP timeline:

http://www.fiftv.com/HVX200/color-720.bmp

http://www.fiftv.com/HVX200/color-1080.bmp

Those are uncompressed, un-stretched, straight-from-the-camera shots of the identical same subject. I juiced up the color by using cine-matrix and color level +4.

What are you seeing in the 720 shot that's better than the 1080?

As far as I can tell they look about the same to me, definitely the same hues and saturation, but the 1080 is a lot bigger which makes for proportionately better color -- i.e., cleaner edges between colored objects. Blowing 'em up in photoshop, you can blow up the 1080 picture to 200% and the 720p picture to 300%, that'll give you equivalent size displays, and then you can easily see that displayed at that size, the 1080 just looks better. Like it should. If you view them at 100% they look very comparable to each other.

If I'm crazy, let me know. But I haven't found a circumstance yet where 720 looks better than 1080. I typically shoot in 1080 whenever I have enough card time, and only resort to 720 when I need the extra card space.

I saw a controled studio shoot with the HVX- I was viewing in the Apple cinema display. I know this is not the best place to view the footage but it was clear to me and to the people in the room that the 720p footage (a girl surrounded by candlelights on a black background) that everything just looked better at 720p. Barry, if you could, how about posting an excelent scene with the HVX (video, could be only 10 seconds of each) in the exact same position (but with movement) with both 1080P and 720P- This could clear my doubts.

I saw HK (Hong Kong) shot by the HVX and was really impressed. It was at 720p.

And really, it was on that scene (candlelight and black background) that I saw that the noise thing was an non-issue whatsoever.

EDIT- Two more days untill official PAL launch ! (and still no confirmations and news!! )

 

[hvpz]

1080 looks *exactly* the same as 720, color-wise. Only difference is the recorded color resolution is higher in 1080. 1080 records color more cleanly than 720 does.

Thanks Barry for the 2 pictures.

The colors resolutions are the same for me.

What is very apparent is that 1080p don't resolve more details than 720p.

I did some comparaisons with photozoom and I can say that Panasonic engineers did a good job with the real-time upsizing algorithm. I didn't get much more better results with photozoom

And I have to add that i'm very surprised by the aliased edges on the red "scotch machine" in 720p. (in 4:2:2, I believed the problem was irrelevant compared to dv. Or is it for another reason ?)

Of course, HVX200 is a very good camera and the "wolves footage" speaks for itself.

 

[harddrive]

I've seen the beautiful results of 960 v 720 picture on the HVX. ..........So I'm really scared of losing color information if the stretching to 1280 v 720 makes the same consessions as the 1080P signal... I'm very happy with 960 lines, really... (don't forget, we're talking about a 920 / 540 ccd's here...

This is purely theoretical, but I think that IF DVCPRO HD has been changed to 1280x720 for luminance in it's 720p/50 implementation, you won't lose out on chrominance - on the contrary, the chroma matrices are likely to increase in proportion, from 480x720 to 640x720. The gain comes from saving 10 frames per second, and overall compression shouldn't be much changed. Since many HD displays have horizontal resolutions of between 1,000 and 1,400 I think the benefits would be worthwhile.

Yes, "we're talking about a 920 / 540 ccd's here", but pixel shift will mean an increase of about 20% or more in LUMINANCE resolution, so equivalent in horizontal terms to approximately 1100-1200, albeit with lower MTF. Chrominance resolution of the front end will remain defined by the 960 pixels - but more than enough even if the chroma matrices do increase to 640x720.

 

[ro_max]

What is very apparent is that 1080p don't resolve more details than 720p.

I'm not sure, I agree with you. I do see more "detail" for example on the sheet of paper at the bottom of the frame, you can barely make out "AS LOW AS 4.50%" in the 1080p grab, the same printing is less legible on the the 720p grab.

 

[xray]

HVX Europe PAL related? :dankk2:

 

[joe 1008]

OK, xray, you´re right. But there is an other post from me, can´t delete it. But will be the last one.