Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

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I've heard talk that sensors vary in quality off the production line. Would that also affect DR?

I've always had the thought that the lower quality s35 sensors would end up in the Scarlet s35 while the better ones go to the Epics.

What affects would we be seeing in image quality?
 
stockfuel said:
I've heard talk that sensors vary in quality off the production line. Would that also affect DR?

I've always had the thought that the lower quality s35 sensors would end up in the Scarlet s35 while the better ones go to the Epics.

What affects would we be seeing in image quality?
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According to RED the only differences will be in maximum frame rates and maximum data rates. Scarlet S35 won't support the highest data rates that Epic does. But image quality should be otherwise identical, at least on par with current RED 1 MX, which is extremely good.
 
I wouldn't expect them to say anything else, they are first and foremost marketing their products..... but in the real world, sensor quality definitely varies.

Hopefully someone here can tell us by how much and what gets affected.
 
stockfuel said:
I've heard talk that sensors vary in quality off the production line. Would that also affect DR?

I've always had the thought that the lower quality s35 sensors would end up in the Scarlet s35 while the better ones go to the Epics.

What affects would we be seeing in image quality?
Click to expand...

There is a variation in response for noise, linearity, saturation behaviour etc. I have seen differences in some sensors, 20% extra noise or a fraction of a stop less dynamic range. Nothing serious. There are grades of sensors also, depending on the faults they have (number and positioning of problematic pixels). With proper quality control you shouldn't be able to measure a difference on a commercial product after calibration is performed so it's nothing I would worry about.
 
stockfuel said:
I've heard talk that sensors vary in quality off the production line. Would that also affect DR?

I've always had the thought that the lower quality s35 sensors would end up in the Scarlet s35 while the better ones go to the Epics.

What affects would we be seeing in image quality?
Click to expand...

I am surprised that there is still an expectation that an S35 will be produced. Quite honestly, given the difficulties RED has faced recently even finding a manufacturer for the Scarlet 2/3" that would be unlikely in my humble opinion.
 
yoclay said:
I am surprised that there is still an expectation that an S35 will be produced. Quite honestly, given the difficulties RED has faced recently even finding a manufacturer for the Scarlet 2/3" that would be unlikely in my humble opinion.
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Poppycock. They are still on program if behind. Push comes to shove they can make it here as they are doing with the Epic, might cost 10-15% more. But still a relative bargain.
 
yoclay said:
I am surprised that there is still an expectation that an S35 will be produced. Quite honestly, given the difficulties RED has faced recently even finding a manufacturer for the Scarlet 2/3" that would be unlikely in my humble opinion.
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:huh:

I never heard that finding manufacturers was at such a stage that they were considering canning the program. Regarding the possibility of Scarlet being built in the US (along with EPIC) the last word on the matter, as best I can tell, was:

"[There are working Scarlet prototypes... EPIC will be manufactured in the US. Scarlet is still undecided.... at least we aren't saying." - Jim


Sounds more like they've narrowed down the possibilities, they aren't just talking about it - as is more or less their new MO until things are locked down.

Do you have another statement from RED team that I may have missed?
 
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I don't really understand Red. Red One with MX covers the large sensor market quite well. Everyone who was interested is a camera of that cost and that sensor size has probably bought the Red One already. The real deal in the 2/3" Scarlet, the practical 2/3" camcorder. There is a demand for this type of camera and it has many advantages. But Red keep pushing it further away and focusing on Epic. A market closer to Alexa and other high end digital cinema cameras. A very small market.

If Scarlet 2/3" is feasible at that cost and for the projected sales and has image quality that can compete with a 2/3" camcorder, it makes sense to focus on Scarlet 100%. Even if it can only outperform the expensive 2/3" GOP compression rolling shutter CMOS Sony, it can sell quite well. Not 7,000 a month, but 2,000 within 6 months sounds reasonable.
 
Otis Grapsas said:
I don't really understand Red.
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"I wanted to build a professional camera at the highest level... and a camera for the aspiring professional that he/she could afford." - Jim Jannard

Sounds me like he just wants to make amazing cameras - hence the whole idea to pursue ridiculous things like 6K FF35 @ 250fps, 28K medium format, etc. Things that, as of now, would be relegated to the most rare of specialty uses.

And he then plans on making that technology - in a slightly less amazing form - available to those without tens of thousands of dollars available and just a single ten thousand.
 
Otis Grapsas said:
I don't really understand Red. Red One with MX covers the large sensor market quite well. Everyone who was interested is a camera of that cost and that sensor size has probably bought the Red One already. The real deal in the 2/3" Scarlet, the practical 2/3" camcorder. There is a demand for this type of camera and it has many advantages. But Red keep pushing it further away and focusing on Epic. A market closer to Alexa and other high end digital cinema cameras. A very small market.

If Scarlet 2/3" is feasible at that cost and for the projected sales and has image quality that can compete with a 2/3" camcorder, it makes sense to focus on Scarlet 100%. Even if it can only outperform the expensive 2/3" GOP compression rolling shutter CMOS Sony, it can sell quite well. Not 7,000 a month, but 2,000 within 6 months sounds reasonable.
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This is my interpretation - Red is one of those enterprises by a crazy billionaire who realizes he won't live forever, and has enough money to "pursue his dream". One of Jim Jannard's greatest passions is photography. Personally, I really like his work. Like Michael quoted above, all Jim Jannard wants is to make the best digital cinemas, and make them reach the largest userbase possible. A camera for the professionals, and a truly affordable cinema quality camera for the non-commercial or amateur filmmakers. Or even just hobbyists. Now, obviously, this is not a charity. It is a business, a business that listens to its customers and a business that is thriving. But unlike Sony or Panasonic, RED can take risks. They can keep pushing the barrier because a force of passion with a lot of money is behind it. Something like a 28K - it is hard to imagine that making much of a profit over the development costs. Why is it there? Because Jim wants it, as simple as that. So, perhaps it is not fair to pigeonhole Red's motivations into that of generic businesses.

As for Scarlet, I am not sure where the "7000 per month" rumour came from. 2000 per 6 months sounds very low. Scarlet 2/3" is not competing with something like a $17k Sony PMW-350. We are talking about Scarlet 2/3" Fixed, which is a ready-to-shoot camera at $4750. It is clearly a competitor to the Sony EX1 or Panasonic AF100. This is a much larger volume segment. Now, I don't expect it to have massive sales like Panasonic HVX200 or Sony EX1/EX3, but there's a bigger market than 2000 per 6 months, certainly. The Red One, at $30k or more, has sold 8000 units within 3+ years!
 
yoclay said:
Please keep your response's respectful. I'm tired of this kind of attitude surrounding anything to do with RED.
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I am tired of people spreading fud about RED's program. The entire modular camera line, Epic and Scarlet, 2/3" and S35 are in development and will be released when they are completed. At this point they are less than two years into the development cycle since the initial announcement of the modular program in October 08.
Sure they have had setbacks, some due to the unpredictable nature of research and development, some due to losing suppliers in a very difficult world economy, but the program has not changed other than to add features and increase performance. Digital cinema cameras with the level of quality and performance that RED aspires to have not been built by anyone at any price so far. It is inherently a difficult and challenging process to bring these to market in so short a time frame.
 
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hey otis i just read about sigma's foveon sensor hwere a pixel has 3 layered colors in it
whats your take on that?
 
Maybe few years back a 2/3" scarlet is BIG news. There are applications for 2/3" especially for the run gun ENG crowd, but these usually demand big shoulder mounted platform so the rig is more stabil for the reporter on the field or the guy chasing down a reality show contestant. Not to mention the amount of time needed to harness the codec.

Red core competence is cinema, therefore it makes all sense in the world for them to concentrate in the high end cine big sensor Epic first and then the big sensor Scarlet.
 
LuckyStudio 13 said:
Maybe few years back a 2/3" scarlet is BIG news. There are applications for 2/3" especially for the run gun ENG crowd, but these usually demand big shoulder mounted platform so the rig is more stabil for the reporter on the field or the guy chasing down a reality show contestant. Not to mention the amount of time needed to harness the codec.

Red core competence is cinema, therefore it makes all sense in the world for them to concentrate in the high end cine big sensor Epic first and then the big sensor Scarlet.
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Yeah that's why best picture and best cinematography Oscars for the last two years running have gone to pictures mostly shot on 2/3" or s16mm format cameras. It is an excellent and aesthetically appropriate creative format choice for any production application.
The introduction of a sub $10k 2/3" format camera the size of Bolex that can shoot at significantly higher than HD resolution with 16mm film like quality and all the creative flexibility that true raw acquisition provides is still big news in my book. I have waited 30 years for a camera like this.
 
Yea well, as far as *I am* concerned the next generation cam for narrative indie filmmakers is going to have a small form big sensor at least s35mm sensor tht accept cheap dslr lenses. 1/3", 1/2", 2/3" and dof 35mm adapters are all going to the age of dinosaurs. I am fully excited to see the next gen of HDSLR cams as well as the video HDSLR hybird. You might have to wait a little more longer but thts nothing after a long 30 years wait right?
 
dcloud said:
hey otis i just read about sigma's foveon sensor hwere a pixel has 3 layered colors in it
whats your take on that?
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I have a Sigma with the Foveon sensor and I love the "Kodakcolor" look it does, thou it sucks at low light and over ISO 300.

I wish we could see a video camera with a better low light Foveon.

Frank
 
Yeah I don't mind waiting a little longer. No compelling need to jump on something else sooner. I am specifically interested in the best affordable replacement for a 16mm film camera. No DOF adapters wanted or needed, 2/3" is capable of a practical and pleasant range of creative DOF control, certainly far more flexible than what one can do with a 1/3" camera.
There are decent 2/3" cameras in the $20k and up range, the ones I like are more like $30-$70k, although the new Sony PDW-350 is pretty nice. Too expensive for a personal camera. Scarlet is pushing the limits pretty hard. But it is not just one camera, it is a system, and I can always add an S35 brain and lenses to the mix later if I want to.

To those that are willing to sacrifice absolutely everything that makes for a practical high quality general purpose motion picture camera to get 35mm shallow DOF, I say more power to them. HDSLR's are nice still cameras with mediocre consumer video features.
 
dcloud said:
hey otis i just read about sigma's foveon sensor hwere a pixel has 3 layered colors in it
whats your take on that?
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In 8 years we might have something better, but a bayer sensor is the only single sensor solution that makes sense today.
 
Foveon isn't really a single-sensor, it's a three-chip design all sandwiched together. But whereas conventional three-chip designs use a reasonably optically pure prism to split the light beams out and send red, green, and blue to the individual chips, the Foveon instead uses its own silicon to separate the beams. And silicon isn't nearly as effective or transparent a filter as a glass prism.

I think the Foveon is fascinating technology, but so far the results haven't quite delivered on the promises. If it could be perfected, it might indeed someday be the holy grail of a single surface (for film-style lenses) but with three chips for no demosaic'ing and 4:4:4 color sampling potential. But right now, Bayer is still the best all-around solution for single sensor implementations.
 
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