It is simply not physically possible. Large sensors require large lens elements and large physical apertures to deliver light at the same average exposure density. It comes down to basic inverse square law physics. Double the sensor area and you have to deliver four times the light for the same f stop.
Epic and Scarlet release in 2010
- Thread starter Emanuel
- Start date
- Status
It is simply not physically possible. Large sensors require large lens elements and large physical apertures to deliver light at the same average exposure density. It comes down to basic inverse square law physics. Double the sensor area and you have to deliver four times the light for the same f stop.
Michael Olsen
Veteran
Barry,
I think you may have begun typing this response before I edited my post to qualify my statements in exactly that regard - Panasonic and Sony are definitely the established companies here and I expect the AF-100 to exist when Panasonic says it will and I expect to do exactly what Panasonic has said it will, if not a bit more as a surprise.
RED definitely does not have a good track record for hitting their scheduled release times and, as you mentioned, "everything is subject to change" with their program.
That said, I'd wager they could manage to make one tasty burger.
:beer:
John Caballero
Veteran
We know for sure that the AF100 will happen because Panasonic already has the GH1 and the HMC150 out in the market and for a very long time and proven. They merge their technologies and you basically get the AF100. The problem with Red is the syndrome that makes people say, oh thats not that difficult to do I will even do it even better. And when reality hits is another matter altogether. I said it many times before here and at Reduser, the big guys have everything set up already to make cameras and by the time Scarlet might come out they will be more than ready for it. They are the leaders and will be for a very, very long time.
A prime lens is a different proposition. Again, not always the most practical choice for some production needs. Back packing a light rig into a wilderness area for nature shoots comes to mind. Not only would you need to carry a bag full of lenses, the long telephoto primes f5.6 600-800mm on a 35mm camera would weigh more by themselves than an entire Scarlet 2/3" rig with say a single Angenieux 12-240 f4.2 zoom.
Pietro Impagliazzo
Well-known member
Exactly.
But my point is that from the get go people speculated that a company would come out with a superior offering.
That was in 2008... And it hasn't happened yet.
But since RED is always the first to take a big step in its market segment (if we segment it by price point) there's still no reason for it to happen.
This particular claim was always about two non-existant cameras. Scarlet vs Big companies making a camera like they never did before.
Even the whole 'Nikon has no market to protect' theory is sacked so far.
Wasn't the RED One enough to alert them already?
I mean... If RED didn't exist all those buyers would go with Varicams and XDCams.
Perhaps I may be saying bs here and/or this market share is not of enough signifcance.
But I'm not sure there wasn't any cues for the big guys to step in. Perhaps they are just waiting for the best of them, which is Scarlet.
It's just that I don't believe they will up the ante to RED's level (features and price). But I'd be glad to be proved wrong.
John Caballero
Veteran
Red took a very "big step" once, that's it. Brought out a camera that costs $30,000 to get it working and talked and talked about a low priced version called Scarlet. That is it so far. In the meantime the big boys are revolutionizing the industry with the HDSLRs and soon the big sensor fully integrated video cameras at an affordable price point. In the not so distant future they will implement a RAW codec for sure. The big boys got to be big for a very good reason.
Pietro Impagliazzo
Well-known member
I was thinking exactly about this yesterday.
Rationalizing whether RED is taking a big step every turn or just took a big leap and had a head start.
However, the quick evolution of Mysterium into Mysterium-X makes me inclined to conclude that it's taking big steps every time.
RED can brag all they want about RAW but I must confess it's their low price optics that makes me more interested.
Red is taking an even bigger step with the second gen cameras now. It is much more than just talk. The improvements in their software alone, not to mention the MX upgrade for RED 1, still put them at the front of the pack. That its taking a little longer than anyone anticipated to make the next leap forward and do so with all of the bullet proof reliability and features the pro cinema market demands is frustrating for everyone. But it is happening.
Meantime 3 years after R1's release all we see from the big boys is the same old dribbleware. There is nothing technologically more advanced with the DSLR's than handycams and point and shoot still cameras haven't had for years. All they did was accidently reveal the potential prosumer market for a practical compact sized large sensor digital motion camera and so far no one has produced one. It is obviously neither as easy nor as cheap to do so as many would like to think.
Last edited:
Red makes cameras for the future. And these cameras are so futuristic that they only exist in the FUTURE! 
Sorry, I'm over the hype. Sooooo over the hype. Until cameras are delivered in quantity I just can't understand the rabid fanboy loyalty to a product that is out of the average scarlet users price range. This market is passing them by and to me it looks more and more like Red is happy to cede the prosumer market and stick to where they can really make a huge difference, against Arri and Panavision and the high end camera market.
Sorry, I'm over the hype. Sooooo over the hype. Until cameras are delivered in quantity I just can't understand the rabid fanboy loyalty to a product that is out of the average scarlet users price range. This market is passing them by and to me it looks more and more like Red is happy to cede the prosumer market and stick to where they can really make a huge difference, against Arri and Panavision and the high end camera market.
I don't think the market is passing Red by. I do think they will not compete in the under $3k prosumer space, nor do they need to.
"Prosumers" who are truly able to make their cameras earn a living for them will take the next step up as soon as they can afford to. Red will still be at the forefront of making that step into a truly high quality professional digital motion camera smaller and more affordable than it has been in the past just as they are now.
"Prosumers" who are truly able to make their cameras earn a living for them will take the next step up as soon as they can afford to. Red will still be at the forefront of making that step into a truly high quality professional digital motion camera smaller and more affordable than it has been in the past just as they are now.
True, up to a point. All I'm saying is that zoom lenses could possibly be made smaller. The zoom on the NEX-VG10 is small but slow at the long end. Perhaps there could be some compromise between bulk and greater speed, and with fully electronic control, a constant T-stop could be possible.
Last edited:
Well, I can tell you it passed me by. Two years ago a 2/3 chip Red camera sounded pretty nifty, but now I'll pass and wait for the Canon/Panasonic options with larger sensor. And originally they were going for that market with their 3K for 3K hype.
Yes, but the question is when. Next year? The year after? It's all talk until they can deliver, and they know it. They have talked themselves into a corner with the blizzard of PDF's and hype and people got tired of it.
And they still have a long way to go, not just in delivering cameras, but in sorting out the post workflow. There's a huge prosumer crowd that needs the ability to shoot for a client and hand over footage at the end of the day, Red is ill suited for those kinds of gigs and I would say is not the right tool.
I don't see how they'll shrink the cameras any more and keep the price down. Epic is pretty small and you pay a premium for that small footprint. Epic is the priority for them. We are over halfway through 2010 and there's no firm delivery date for Epic or even the start of their Tattoo program. Only when Epic is ready for delivery will Scarlet get the attention and time. They've been pretty clear that Epic is their main priority right now and it makes sense. Does it make sense to wait another year or two for a working scarlet? Not if you're a working prosumer.
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
post scriptum
post scriptum
BTW, I am not sure if you've noticed but the motion picture business is really changing allover the place. The models of the past are... past. It would be nice that RED should be aware of the history. It isn't only a matter of technology. The issue of the technology has been to forget too often there's a whole world to handle with outside.
The world is not the same after to have to coexist with internet. And now there are the DSLRs.
post scriptum
BTW, I am not sure if you've noticed but the motion picture business is really changing allover the place. The models of the past are... past. It would be nice that RED should be aware of the history. It isn't only a matter of technology. The issue of the technology has been to forget too often there's a whole world to handle with outside.
The world is not the same after to have to coexist with internet. And now there are the DSLRs.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I wonder if the Scarlet wouldn't do more to kill Red, than just ignoring that market segment would do. #1 thing that kills off companies, is growing too fast. Selling 7,000 Red Ones over the course of three years, at relatively very high prices, to a customer base that is (comparatively) extremely forgiving, is a pace that they could handle. Selling 7,000 Scarlets a month, to a tremendously less patient and more demanding customer, well... that's a whole different world.
The specialty market, and the mass market, are night and day different. The safe course for Red may be to design (and price) the Scarlet so that it appeals to the Epic buyer as a relatively inexpensive backup body or insert/effects camera. And that's entirely and completely different from releasing a Scarlet as Joe Indie's one-and-only dream camera that he's saved up every penny for the last two years, just to be able to afford. Managing expectations, and managing mass-market consumers, is totally different. Red sells Red Ones and Epics largely comparable to the Oakley model, yes? Expensive products for the discriminating buyer. But if they get in the trenches with Wal-Mart and Best Buy, I wonder if they're prepared for that? Canon and Nikon and Panasonic have been doing it for decades.
If anything threatened to kill Red, I'd wager the original "3K for $3K" and "soccer mom" program was far more dangerous, than bypassing the low-end and focusing on what they do well and doing it very well.
But, hey, like I always say -- Jim Jannard is on the Forbes Billionaire list, and none of us are, so -- it would be wise to assume that they know what they're doing, and that what they do will be the best course of action for them.
Last edited:
Red makes cameras for the future. And these cameras are so futuristic that they only exist in the FUTURE!
Sorry, I'm over the hype. Sooooo over the hype. Until cameras are delivered in quantity I just can't understand the rabid fanboy loyalty to a product that is out of the average scarlet users price range. This market is passing them by and to me it looks more and more like Red is happy to cede the prosumer market and stick to where they can really make a huge difference, against Arri and Panavision and the high end camera market.
I don’t know when Scarlet will come, and I don’t really know what rabid fanboy loyalty means. All I know is that I want a 3K 16-bit RAW, Near M-X level sensitivity/DR, 100+ fps , a convenient 2/3” format and much more as soon as possible in the ~$6k prosumer “EX1 market”. I am not holding my breath, but at the same time, I eagerly anticipate it. It doesn’t really matter if it is RED or Sony or Panasonic or a new company, we just want a huge leap forward. Granted, this is just my personal opinion, as some of the above things won’t matter as much to many.
There’s very little we know for certain. Judging by the constant delays, neither do Red. I am convinced, though, that Red are motivated to making Scarlet a reality, and surely, are soaking in a ton of knowledge about what is surely a very complex development process.
I think many of us feel the same way… We all want to see Scarlet on the market asap. Skepticism is only natural, but we do want better cameras in the market. Speculation is healthy, but neither suggesting Red is abandoning Scarlet nor that Scarlet is releasing in 4-5 months for sure is anything more than mere speculation. Perhaps the best thing to do with a seemingly uncertain project is to follow it passively, but don’t wait for it!
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Barry, you have a point. But if you look the history of this business we find more billionaires to fail than to succeed in this industry. I wouldn't call Scarlet a JCPenney rebrand. Last but not least, hollywood won't resist going with the same old formula.
Who is dazzled with hollywood risk themselves to be puzzled somewhere in the midway.
That said, strictly under this POV, DSLRs are the revolution itself, not RED ONE.
Who is dazzled with hollywood risk themselves to be puzzled somewhere in the midway.
That said, strictly under this POV, DSLRs are the revolution itself, not RED ONE.
Michael Olsen
Veteran
I think RED has, for the immediate future, written the everyman out of their plans. As last announced (in November of last year) the least expensive camera (2/3" Fixed) was projected to cost $4750. I don't see Walmart, Best-Buy, etc even wanting to touch that. Much less explaining why a CF card costs $500 instead of $99, and why you can only use the RED CF card for best performance, or why they should probably keep their new 3K camera dialed to 1080p RGB out unless they want to deal with looooong render times (using what? windows movie maker?...). Not to mention the whole "I read I can buy a module that makes the camera record sound? No, I don't have a microphone. They cost how much?! Are you kidding me?" situation.
An enthusiastic Joe Sixpack will be stunningly happy with options like the VG-10. Relatively inexpensive buy-in, relatively inexpensive media, and the option to "get into film" buy using different lenses. What more could the average world traveler want?
I feel like even a lot of the prosumer crowd could quickly become overwhelmed. I talked briefly with someone who is making a living using existing videocameras and his face went a bit pale when I described a basic RED workflow. It's not that its difficult or complicated, it's just that it is relatively more complex than the simple record, offload, edit.
I have to remind myself - RED isn't imagined as a video camera. It's imagined as a wavelet compressed RAW file-based ultra-high definition digital cinema camera. Which, oh yeah, can also do 1080pRGB if you really need it to once in a while for some stodgy client who demands "1080p out of the camera no matter what! And I don't care if you can do it in post in realtime, I want it on the camera! HD camera makes 1080p! I want 1080p now. Not in five minutes, not in ten minutes, not in two days. Now."*
*This is, to be fair, a real and valid concern as some content does need to be delivered instantly in 1080p. Some people are just difficult for the sake of being difficult, or they genuinely don't understand. I'm glad RED is looking into different modules to address some of that concern.
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
That's pretty much exactly what I meant, yes. You are seeing exactly what I was concerned about.
So, in any case, a little more time should tell...
So, in any case, a little more time should tell...
Jim Jannard was reminded of that reality within days of Red's announcing the original Scarlet. People whined almost immediately about the lack of lens interchangeability, and his response was accurate -- high-quality zoom lenses, especially removable ones, are expensive -- but also very angry.
Red seems to have tried to distance itself from the "3K for $3K"/"soccer mom" thing, without actually renouncing it altogether. Both aspects were effectively killed when they decided to go modular, which substantially raised the price (the kit may ultimately cost double the original $3K but nonetheless appears to lack stuff announced for the original design, such as a 4.8" LCD, HD-SDI, and a second CF slot) and complicated purchase decision-making for the amateur (what does this module do, and do I need it?). Also, at NAB 2008 Ted Schilowitz mentioned Red was working on a simplified Scarlet workflow, which I assume would yield good results with the out-of-the-box defaults but which could be tweaked ad nauseum. Haven't heard anything about that since.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. Yes, ultimately Red will do what's best for them, but they've already had at least one major course correction, and, if Scarlet is indeed released before the end of the year, it will be nearly a year and a half behind schedule. Jim has admitted that Red didn't know what they were doing when they began the Epic and Scarlet programs, but in all fairness, they were sailing in uncharted waters (and stiil are). Scarlet 3K will probably still be a success, but I suspect more so among pros than among well-healed amateurs.
What's ironic is that Scarlet 3K's viability is limited in that it's incompatible with Jim Jannard's oft-repeated "The future is 4K" mantra. And he doesn't mean just at the upper levels of the mega-budget Hollywood production stratosphere -- he's been emphatic that he means in the home, too. "Rendering obsolescence all but certain" is one way to describe Scarlet 3K. And before anyone gets pissed off, yes, it's true, there's nothing remotely comparable in its price range. But still, resolution-wise, it's the only Red product that doesn't fit in with Red's 4K vision.
Last edited:
- Status