"EOS Movies" 4k Speculation.

M

meauounji

Well-known member
Oh boy, here comes another senseless speculation thread, I bet you're thinking. Actually I was just doing some math, and I think I've figured out what this:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/03/canon-has-a-new-eos-movies-dslr-on-the-way-too/

actually is.


Stay with me for a minute. Here's what we know for sure:
  • This "EOS Movie" camera looks identical to the 1DX, except for the red C. I concede that it may not be the final production body.
  • According to Canon's official press release, it has a full frame sensor like a 1DX, but they say it can shoot 4K motion JPEG, with an APS-H crop.
  • The 1DX can do 14 fps JPEG continuous shooting.
  • The 1DX's full frame sensor is 5184 x 3456 pixels.
  • If you take an APS-H crop of that sensor, it becomes apx 3986 x 2657. Window it down to 16:9 and it becomes 3986 x 2242.
  • 4K, defined by Canon through the C300 is 3840 x 2160. Which is just slightly smaller than the APS-H crop of the 1DX.
  • Again: the 1DX can drive 5184 x 3456 pixels, or 18 megapixels 14 times a second in JPEG.
  • The APS-H crop, windowed down to 16:9 is 9 megapixesl (8.9 if you want to get technical)
Are you putting 2 and 2 together yet? You probably already know what I'm going to say next.

If the 1DX windows down to APS-H, 16:9, the data rate per frame becomes pretty much exactly HALF as it's full-frame, 18 megapixels, which theoretically means it should be able to drive the smaller frames twice as many times per second, which brings us to.... 28 FPS. Window all the way down to quadHD or 3840 x 2160 like the C300's "4K" and it is EXACTLY enough data to do 30P. Feel free to check my math.


Conclusion:
I think this "EOS Movies" DSLR is nothing more than a 1DX with the ability to window down to 3840 x 2160, possibly 3986 x 2242 for "true" APS-H, possibly smaller for higher frame rates. Some other peeps around here has already implicitly came to the same conclusion, if not so specific.

Agree? Disagree? Think I'm crazy? Let me have it!
 
I wish I understood what your trying to say but it sounds to me like you're saying that the c300 and the 1D will have the same sensor or quality picture which I believe wouldn't happen in a million years from Canon's point of view and more importantly a customers point of view.

Why would I pay $20,000 for a camera if a $10,000 dollar camera you produce gives me the same look?

I may have missed your point, like I said I wish I could understand what all the numbers and math you quoted meant.
But from this none techie's point of view it certainly sound like you are driving the "quality will be just as good angle" on the 1d as the c300.

I doubt it, but It would be nice.
 
I did wonder, after seeing the Cx" whether the "I-Frame" codec of the 1Dx was in fact an M-JPEG codec.

AFAIK M_JPEG is limited to 8 bit, the same as still JPEGs, so not sure how the footage will grade, I know JPEGs are pretty horrible, which is why I stick to Raw stills.

Dave
 
ccastro said:
I wish I understood what your trying to say but it sounds to me like you're saying that the c300 and the 1D will have the same sensor or quality picture which I believe wouldn't happen in a million years from Canon's point of view and more importantly a customers point of view.

Why would I pay $20,000 for a camera if a $10,000 dollar camera you produce gives me the same look?

I may have missed your point, like I said I wish I could understand what all the numbers and math you quoted meant.
But from this none techie's point of view it certainly sound like you are driving the "quality will be just as good angle" on the 1d as the c300.

I doubt it, but It would be nice.
Click to expand...

Not at all. I didn't say that at all. I'm saying that the 1DX, according to published specs, has the capability to process 3840 x 2160 JPEGS at 24+ FPS. I'm not saying that the image quality (which is way more involved than just resolution and pixel count) is better than C300. I'm also not saying it's worse. I'm saying the quality will be basically the same as 1DX, because the camera IS the 1DX with the capability to record from just part of the sensor.

C300 records in 50mbits 4:2:2 XF codec.
EOS Movies 4K records in 4k Motion JPEG.

They're not the same thing.

Also, the $20,000 on the C300 pays for WAY more than just the sensor. You've got focus assist, waveform monitors, a MONITOR at all, a much more comprehensive audio subsystem, SDI outs, different image processors and other ASICS, Genlock, on and on and on. It's a purpose built cinema camera, and you're paying for what that entails, not just the sensor.
 
Well, if I remember Canon did say the "Cx" sensor WAS the same as the 1Dx, they were just windowing down to 4K.

The 1Dx can also do 5K RAW at 12 FPS, but we don't know what part of that limit is:

a) mirror rate

b) data path bottleneck

I reckon they could give 3K raw at 24 FPS (Just a guess BTW).

DAve
 
Canon won't actually give us 4K output. That would cannibalize the C300. Why buy a C300 that can output HD if you can buy a DSLR that can output 4k?
 
daveswan said:
The 1Dx can also do 5K RAW at 12 FPS, but we don't know what part of that limit is:

a) mirror rate

b) data path bottleneck

I reckon they could give 3K raw at 24 FPS (Just a guess BTW).

DAve
Click to expand...

I think it's a little bit of both. If it's JUST the mirror then they wouldn't need to go all JPEG once mirror lock occurs. I think the real challenge with 4K motion JPEG is whether the back plane of the sensor can write that much data to CF cards that fast.


kylevant said:
Canon won't actually give us 4K output. That would cannibalize the C300. Why buy a C300 that can output HD if you can buy a DSLR that can output 4k?
Click to expand...

You're making it sound like I made up the 4K camera. I don't know why they would or wouldn't do it beyond speculating, but what we DO know is that they've officially announced it in a press release. At least as a concept, anyway. The 4k EOS Movies thing isn't my creation. It's Canon's. My guess is that they realize there's a market out there that's looking for either a full-frame sensor, 4K output, or both, and that they're going to modify the 1DX to satisfy that market.
 
I wonder if by Canon creating a more video centric HDSLR, will it up the price as well. We all expected the 5D3 to come out with better video capabilities but now they may repackage it in the price point of the AF/FS 100 and the new model for the still folks will be in the 3k range.
 
kylevant said:
Canon won't actually give us 4K output.
Click to expand...
Yes, Canon will give you 4k Quicktimes from their DSLR.

kylevant said:
That would cannibalize the C300. Why buy a C300 that can output HD if you can buy a DSLR that can output 4k?
Click to expand...
In that case, why use an Alexa ever?

It comes down to: people (like broadcasters, for example) will pay you money for HD stuff you make that looks good.

The easier it is for you to deliver lots of stuff in HD that looks good, the easier it is for you to make money. This is a business for many people.

The C300 is aimed at that broadcast business.
The 4k DSLR is probably aimed at fending off RED's DSMC thing.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
bruceallen said:
It comes down to: people (like broadcasters, for example) will pay you money for HD stuff you make that looks good.

The easier it is for you to deliver lots of stuff in HD that looks good, the easier it is for you to make money. This is a business for many people.

The C300 is aimed at that broadcast business.
The 4k DSLR is probably aimed at fending off RED's DSMC thing.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

That's a good point, Bruce. I think the C300 is their FIRST foray into digital cinema, therefore, it makes the most sense to have a camera that plugs into existing workflow with no fuss. In fact, I've read that line in their official C300 faq. I think that 2-3 years from now, they're going to come out with something that's more adventurous than the C300, which feels more like a plug-and-play, get used to seeing Canon on set, kind of a maneuver.

Obviously, they plan on doing bigger and better things, evidenced clearly by the cinema style lenses, and even more obviously by the service center in CA. If they were just going to do a throwaway camera and not develop a system around it, then such a service center would not be necessary.
 
first off, people are still throwing around 20K as the c300 price, get with the news, it's ~13K range(EDIT: officially 16K), so quit inflating to make a point

next up, i the 1dx is their flagship DSLR, nothing will be more expensive then it, especially not the EOS C. my best guess for it's price would be 5-6000.

now, i'm hoping that it delivers a CUTTABLE image quality to the c300, then i would be sold, because yes, the c300 youre paying for more than just the sensor, you get sdi, xlr, nd, monitoring,etc....

and i swear if anyone expects the EOS C to have any of those features i will come find you....

as much as i treasure those extra features, they are video camera features, and i will willingly give them up for a similar IQ and less than half the price
 
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imdjay said:
first off, people are still throwing around 20K as the c300 price, get with the news, it's ~13K range, so quit inflating to make a point
Click to expand...
Let's not deflate it either. It's $15,999 according to Texas Media Systems, a DVXUser sponsor who has been chosen to be one of the few authorized Canon resellers.

And which is exactly what Chris Hurd said it would be, back when it was first announced on November 3rd, and what I've always thought it would be. $13k is fiction, the reality is $16k.
 
FilmTools (another authorized deal and service center) used the $15,999.99 number as well.

The filmTools pitch for the camera in their video boiled down to 'You can turn that 100 people 4 grip trucks night exterior into a 30 people grip van night exterior".
 
well then it seems I'M the one behind the news!

looks like i'll be leaning towards the eos c even more if they ever announce the specs
 
I was at a C300 hands on demo today and I believe his name was Tim Smith that said to one of the guys in the audience from Evans and Sutherland (a local graphics company) when asked about 4k to wait as that was coming, then stopped short of spilling the beans and clammed up :)

There's something coming that way, but who knows what and when. He also made a telling remark that most snickered at in the crowd. DSLR video was on it's way out for Canon or something to that effect.

It could be an interesting few years here!

Cheers,
Pete
 
daveswan said:
I did wonder, after seeing the Cx" whether the "I-Frame" codec of the 1Dx was in fact an M-JPEG codec.

AFAIK M_JPEG is limited to 8 bit, the same as still JPEGs, so not sure how the footage will grade, I know JPEGs are pretty horrible, which is why I stick to Raw stills.

Dave
Click to expand...

I've graded m-jpeg files out of a D90 and had no issues. The D90 bit-rate averages at around 13Mbit/s. I expect the C-DSLR will use XQD cards for something like 150Mbit/s+ 4k internally and probably a thunderbolt uncompressed output. Now the the Nikon D4 is loose Canon have to lift their game and they'd better be quick before everyone runs out and buys a D4.
 
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