Enough Already ! Adaptor Makers Guilty

Everyone seems to be moving in the direction of establishing themselves/ their company as legitimate manufacturers in the film/video industry; theres hardly a DIY flavor anymore. Instruction manuals are a given for such aspiring companies. Packaging is another aspect. These guys pretty much have that covered, but just because we dont need a flight case, pelican case (well, I guess some people use these) or fancy box, doesnt mean they should start sending them loose, bubbled wrapped, and sitting in a sea of crumpled newspaper. I probably wouldnt even read the manual at this point, at least not past point of reference if that. It didnt bother me that my SG Pro didnt come with one. Still, if there's a thread asking for an instruction manual, then I'm going to throw my vote in for one. And even if there are only a handful of people that find the hard copy beneficial in a way that only a hardcopy can be, then its the right move. The same way that Dennis provides those fuses that I dont even know if I still have. :undecided I dont even know what they are for come to think of it.... the adapter or the charger or... i dunno.... i could use a manual for that. :)

Regarding video tutorials, I've been a brevis owner for awhile now and I finally got around to watching my first two cinevate university video series ep's. I've got to say they are super fast loading and all on the same page. Its really convenient actually. Good job on that, Dennis. But to truth be told, I simply stayed away from it for so long because it just seemed like a chore. Like I have to resign the next 15 minutes to learn the one thing I had a question regarding.

And lastly, all the "Dude, seriously, read the manual" comments can start flowing to those poor, redudant thread op's.
 
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Tim Naylor said:
8) a &&$%(#ing cap for the unit - for crying out loud, they still send them out, glass exposed and 8) a damn good field manual with plastic covers like the Goodman Guide.
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The SgPro come fully Capped, front and rear. I really like the Nikon mount on it also, very solid. I have to agree tho, If I didn't already have experience, and If I was not a member of DVXuser, I would have been dumbfounded when I got my Sg. Luckily it took my about 5-6min from getting it out of the case to mount it and start filming with it. Tho I had already had a lot of experience with the Brevis beforehand, which in tern helps. Wayne, It could be helpful :)

Cheers,

Jon
 
Hi,

We beleive that Tim's post makes a good point to us adapter manufacturers. This is an area which we are spending a lot of time improving upon.

We have been working over the last couple of months on step by step tutorials for all of our products and also an FAQ which is constantly being updated as we receive new information.

We currently have this available on www.shoot35.com which is easily accessible. We are also just about to release a troubleshooting section on the website which will cover many of the common setup hurdles.

All of this information is soon being transfered onto a CD which will be provided with all of our products.

Although this thread has now rasied a concern for us, that maybe we should scrap the CD and produce a paper based version instead.

I think from a customer service aspect, we have always answered emails promptly and resolved any issues as quickly as possible.

Please comment on your preference, either CD or paperbased.
 
glenn, paper would be cool. or a printable pdf on the cd :D

another suggestion would be to put a tutorials section on the site. like at the top where you have "news - products - order..." you could put tutorials. rather than having to navigate through the products individual pages.

btw i love my sgpro and i discovered a new feature!

the new ring design can act like a variable extension tube. with smaller cameras like the sony a1p, you can decrease the vignetting just by not fully engaging the tube.

you're probably aware of this but it's not documented anywhere..

thanks
pat
 
Glenn Coomber said:
Please comment on your preference, either CD or paperbased.
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Well ideally BOTH. But, if I had to choose ONE, I'd say paper. I don't personally own a professional adapter yet, plan to soon, but I can guarantee that a hard, tangible copy of FULL instructions and what not is desired and necessary. When I first got my DVX I must've referred to that manual at least a dozen times my first couple shoots, and that's AFTER having already read it. I STILL keep it with me when I'm out about shooting just in case.
 
Printable PDF manuals are quite common these days so even a big bold printed link to comprehensive printable manual could be good.
But be aware that designing a manual foe everyone is not a job for everyone who even masters CG. When any of adapter makers will come up with manual that would work well for everybody be sure the producer had read the "Graphics for Learning" book beforehand (ISBN-13: 978-0787969943).
It makes tremendous difference afterwards.

Cheers,
T
 
Hi guys

some good suggestions!

Patrick, we are doing just that with the setup tutorials on the website which will be much more user friendly. We are aware of the extending tube idea and are getting all of our HV20 users to do this, so really good point.

Me and Wayne are really starting to think it is the way to go with a PDF file as well as paper copy.

Please keep the suggestions coming as this is the best way for us to know what to include in our manual. :)
 
Jon Neely said:
The SgPro come fully Capped, front and rear.
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My Rev3 came covered with plastik foil and a rubber ring...

I was very disappointed to not find a manual when I got my SG, but since dvxuser gave most answers, I didn´t complain.

Online setup videos and downloadable PDF manuals with clear photos and illustrations are the way to go, I wouldn´t bother with inluding a CD.
A hard copy manual would be just perfect of course, if it wouldn´t cost more than 5 bucks...

Good threat.
 
Downloadable manual in PDF, plus a printed one with the adapter / warranty card and so forth.

e
 
Bravo Tim! This is the point exactly: "I say give good business to the guys who give decent instructions and hell to those who don't." As long as people keep shelling out $1,200 - $1,400 and up and tolerate responses telling them to "look it up" or like I got on one private forum from the moderator "We're all a bunch of gear heads here and like tinkering." they'll keep treating the customers like a focus group / test audience.
 
i think they expect people who spend over a grand on a very boutique item to know what they're doing...
 
Heck, I'll give them props. Evidently Brian and co. have read their customer's needs in this regard very well.

I can only offer meek apologies and profer forth on bent knee (and trembling hands) the $1500 bill for the color laser printer we sourced to make this happen . Dr. Deacon, if you're out there reading this, your Sustainable Development class was not in vain as we're using paper recycled from the washroom waste bin :-) Don't worry, we'll dry it first :grin:
 
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I don't know, once the Brevis is tweaked from shooting tests and getting to know the adapter, theres not much more you need to do. Changing the GG is straight forward, if you get get dust in there, there is a tool to open it up. To me, its getting to know your stuff inside and out before shooting something thats for someone else. Dennis just blessed me with a flip and I plan to shoot a bunch of times before I take it to any of the gigs coming up. I am taking it to a court TV type pilot tomorrow but don't think I'm going to use it though. I want to get in a bunch of days of shooting starting Saturday with Kwan. We are going to hop around the city all day with it and I will make one of those music driven test videos I used to post all the time. On the other hand, I have an HVX manual and the book but never bring them with me on a shoot and if something comes up I work around it and usually wait til I get home and post a question here anyways. So I guess its all in how you handle the situation when it comes up.
 
Beat Takeshi said:
I don't know, once the Brevis is tweaked from shooting tests and getting to know the adapter, theres not much more you need to do. .
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I don't know when you got your Brevis, but when I got mine a year ago, all there was was a deceptive link that promised to take you to the "manual" which, as all Brevis OWNERS know, didn't actually exist.

Of course, if you hadn't yet PURCHASED the Brevis, you were led to believe that the link would actually take you to the manual. After spending the money you were finally allowed into the members only section where you not only discovered there was no manual, but you also got to read about problems that the Brevis owners were having with their equipment. All conveniently hidden from prospective buyers. Uncool.
 
Takeshi is one of the early adopters of the Brevis so he knows what it was like. And it was a users manual thread, no it wasnt a downloadable pdf but it did the job. We had no problems.

A year ago Cinevate wasn't even full time yet, so that's not really pertinent information, especially on a thread concerned with something manufacturers aren't doing TODAY. A year ago alot of things weren't quite there yet for all of the adapter companies. Now they all have manuals. They are just not hard copy. Hardly deceiving, just inconvenient for some.
 
I was definitely a little bit overwhelmed when I first got my SGpro, although I had it up and running within the same day. There was some fussing and cussing and frustration prior to that though, largely due to my own inexperience with 35mm adapter setups. Nowadays I can rebuild the whole rig in a few minutes.

A paper manual with a separate quick start sheet would've made a big difference overall in the "experience" - it's not something I'm really that worried about, but it's worth considering for people who are less rabid about this stuff than us early adopters on the bleeding edge. Some people will have the time/patience, others might not.

I think a video would be great as well. I was relying on the SGpro rev2 setup tutorial when configuring my rev3, and the discrepancies were enough to make things a bit confusing and scary. A video would've done a lot to reassure me when I wasn't sure if I was on the right path or in the process of "breaking" my new adapter! :) Of course you won't really break anything if you just use common sense, but without instructions you can start to feel a tinge of paranoia and doubt setting in if everything doesn't "just work" right away.
 
jenningsp said:
i think they expect people who spend over a grand on a very boutique item to know what they're doing...
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I still don´t get why people defend the manufacturers for not offering a manual from the time they started selling their first batch!
If people are to "pro" and proud to look at a manual, that´s their thing, but judging from all the "how to setup" threads here and on other forums it just isn´t plug´n play...

Good to see the manufacturers finally moving on.
 
We've got some clever folks who believe we should completely figure it out on our own, perhaps, as a test to make us worthy to use an adaptor. And there are those who don't have time for that nonsense.

I read one response saying "you should have it dialed in before you use it on set". I guess he means when the motor dies, I should instinctively know how to dismantle, replace and solder a new connection while the client looks at his watch. Or when I get dust on the ground glass, again I should also know how to completely dismantle and rebuild, and re "dial" it in as second nature. Or the time I began to get grain because the motor's RPM's just couldn't get up to speed, the builder's on holiday and the forums haven't seen this issue or take too long to respond. My sixth sense (and not a troubleshooting section) should tell me that the spindle is out of true, thereby not wasting any more of my client's time (and $). Or the old chestnut; my AC whispers to me (out of the cliient's earshot), "I can't get it to focus on infinity". And I say, "collimate it". He responds: "How?". Me: "We'll call Oregon during lunch." Lunch comes by: "No one's picking up the phone". I say, "well go to DVX user". He says, "we've got no internet...". I say, "&*$^#&& bastards."

And you're telling me we should all these occasions figured out before we step on set? Reality check. Every tech has had gear go down in a pro situation. I expect my AC to be able to get an answer or someone on the line that does within an hour. Why my AC? Time. That's why I always find a Goodman's guide, Arri guide, etc and/or they have a 24/7 hotline. I sold one adaptor because of constant maintenance issues and poor documentation / customer service, despite the fact that I loved it when it was "dialed" in. I just didn't have the time to play on set trouble shooter constantly.

What I'm saying is, time is money. Many of the issues, I've encountered with adaptors cost more than the adaptor's themselves if you factor in the time it cost to deal with them. The difference between 15 minutes of down time to "figure it out' verses 2 minutes of finding it in the trouble shoot section is a lot of money when a full crew is waiting on you. One adaptor cost me so much set time, I agreed to give production a free day. Now that cost. Now I'm bringing up QC issues. Many of these adaptors still have them and so long as they do, documentation (as well as a back up) is even more necessary.

Some of you here are blessed with boundless time or talent and may never need a manual and probably can put together Ikea furniture blindfolded. Me and other sub-genius's (and there's at least ten of us) need instructions.

I had to shoot an episode of BET's American Gangster last week. The producer had me check out an HDX 900. I'd never used one before. Looked at the manual for about 20 minutes during checkout and found what did what and what issues to look out for and away I went. I also felt relieved that any questions arise on set, the answer was in the book. Panasonic understood in this case the value of an ENG cameraman's time.
 
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Arrik said:
And it was a users manual thread, no it wasnt a downloadable pdf but it did the job.
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Give me a break. You make it sound like there was a manual there that just wasn't downloadable and you know that's not true at all. The private owners forum was full of people trying to figure things out. It was full of posts with people stumbling over problems and then posting to try and get help. People asking why their lens mount didn't work or why they didn't get lens caps with their achromat. Don't make it sound like there was one organized post there that was anything like a true users manual.


We had no problems.
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Well good for you. I guess the whole point of this thread is moot then. Clearly there's no need for a printed manual at all. A private-owners forum full of questios and answer posts is good enough. You are exemplifying the attitude that forced this thread to be created in the first place.


A year ago Cinevate wasn't even full time yet, so that's not really pertinent information,
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Maybe you'd like to claim that to try and make your point, but according to Dennis Wood it was full time. And even if you were correct, who cares if it wasn't officially "full time" anyway? Somehow that absolves the manufacturer whose sold hundreds of a $1000+ item from putting together any kind of setup manual? Again, your attitude exemplifies exactly why this thread had to be created.


especially on a thread concerned with something manufacturers aren't doing TODAY.

Hardly deceiving, just inconvenient for some.
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This thread is about an endemic problem which continues to this day. Hardly deceiving? Give me a break. The Cinevate pages were absolutely decieving. All the way down to the http://www.cinevate.com/manuals/ webpage that supposedly linked to a manual which would be accessable AFTER you paid your money, but didn't lead to a manual at all.

You've made it clear that you don't even think there is a need for a real manual at all and that a forum full of owners is enough, so obviously this thread isn't for you, it's for those customers who spend over a thousand dollars on an item only to get it in their hands and not have any idea how to set it up, fix it, work with it now that they have it. And that problem with Cinevate didn't somehow go away when they went "full time" over a year ago, here's a post from just a couple months ago: http://cinevate.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1671
 
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