Enough Already ! Adaptor Makers Guilty

Texanite said:
Of course, if you hadn't yet PURCHASED the Brevis, you were led to believe that the link would actually take you to the manual. After spending the money you were finally allowed into the members only section where you not only discovered there was no manual, but you also got to read about problems that the Brevis owners were having with their equipment. All conveniently hidden from prospective buyers. Uncool.
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Well that is very true, I wrote it in that 'members scetion' about that not being so transparent and the problems the battery was giving out. Only when you know you over use the internal battery till it is fully drain, you can't charge it with the so call smart charger, you need the battery pod to kick start to internal battery for a while till you can use the smart charger.

That was almost 1 year ago. I'm not sure if the new Brevis battery still have this problem.

The point is that it under rates the importance of this battery pod thing. Sure it cost only $13 to buy from Cinevate but the shipping is not free.

I refused to pay for something that i have to pay three times more for shipping. So I build one my self for $2. But not everyone knows how to build one.


Tim Naylor said:
We've got some clever folks who believe we should completely figure it out on our own, perhaps, as a test to make us worthy to use an adaptor. And there are those who don't have time for that nonsense.

I read one response saying "you should have it dialed in before you use it on set". I guess he means when the motor dies, I should instinctively know how to dismantle, replace and solder a new connection while the client looks at his watch. Or when I get dust on the ground glass, again I should also know how to completely dismantle and rebuild, and re "dial" it in as second nature. Or the time I began to get grain because the motor's RPM's just couldn't get up to speed, the builder's on holiday and the forums haven't seen this issue or take too long to respond. My sixth sense (and not a troubleshooting section) should tell me that the spindle is out of true, thereby not wasting any more of my client's time (and $). Or the old chestnut; my AC whispers to me (out of the cliient's earshot), "I can't get it to focus on infinity". And I say, "collimate it". He responds: "How?". Me: "We'll call Oregon during lunch." Lunch comes by: "No one's picking up the phone". I say, "well go to DVX user". He says, "we've got no internet...". I say, "&*$^#&& bastards."

And you're telling me we should all these occasions figured out before we step on set? Reality check. Every tech has had gear go down in a pro situation. I expect my AC to be able to get an answer or someone on the line that does within an hour. Why my AC? Time. That's why I always find a Goodman's guide, Arri guide, etc and/or they have a 24/7 hotline. I sold one adaptor because of constant maintenance issues and poor documentation / customer service, despite the fact that I loved it when it was "dialed" in. I just didn't have the time to play on set trouble shooter constantly.

What I'm saying is, time is money. Many of the issues, I've encountered with adaptors cost more than the adaptor's themselves if you factor in the time it cost to deal with them. The difference between 15 minutes of down time to "figure it out' verses 2 minutes of finding it in the trouble shoot section is a lot of money when a full crew is waiting on you. One adaptor cost me so much set time, I agreed to give production a free day. Now that cost. Now I'm bringing up QC issues. Many of these adaptors still have them and so long as they do, documentation (as well as a back up) is even more necessary.

Some of you here are blessed with boundless time or talent and may never need a manual and probably can put together Ikea furniture blindfolded. Me and other sub-genius's (and there's at least ten of us) need instructions.

I had to shoot an episode of BET's American Gangster last week. The producer had me check out an HDX 900. I'd never used one before. Looked at the manual for about 20 minutes during checkout and found what did what and what issues to look out for and away I went. I also felt relieved that any questions arise on set, the answer was in the book. Panasonic understood in this case the value of an ENG cameraman's time.
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Very well said, when you need one you are glad that you have one.

I am sick and tired of manufacturers say that it is due to copyright issuses and patents that they are not wanting to print out a manual . If I want to copy and sell the so call manuals I can easly copy the pdf files and post it on the net if I want . I had two Brevis. And the one I sold. I burned the buyer a copy of the PDF files on a CD so that he can have use the Brevis before he has excess to the private folder. As Brevis owners out there I'm sure you have hear and seen how many times one has the Brevis but doesn't have access to private folder yet.

Even to today... there are cases like that...

somehow there is time to make new things and sell them but there is never time to print a few peice of paper. Maybe they are with the 'Green' . trying to do their part in saving the world...
 
i got one of the really early m2's, and it came with a pretty useless one sheet, but i didn't really care. i like getting manuals, but after an initial look-through on the can, i find i rarely open them up again. regardless of proper docs, dedicated forums, and full-blown video tutorials, i'm pretty resigned to the belief that these types of basic setup questions, which the OP was addressing, will always be regurgitated, regardless of how good the manual is. and, frankly, these forums are usually better than even the best docs anyway, as the info stays current.

i worked with three redrock owners last year. even with the docs and abundance of info available to anyone who decides to take a look around, none of them had their adapter properly set up. the motor was either too high or too low, the ground glass was wobbly, and their backfocus was slightly off. it's not like they didn't bother to read the docs or peruse the forums. i guess either they didn't like to tinker, or they were lazy (not being critical of laziness, i can be VERY lazy). i think one thing a manual can really help with is just having people realize the basic notion that these adapters, while probably not rocket science, are not plug-and-play either.

personally, i guess the kind of manual that would really be helpful for me would be an endless series of in-depth, exploded diagrams covering materials, parts, and assemblies, so that i could theoretically take the thing apart and put it back together again, kinda like what tim referred to, but i seriously doubt that's ever going to happen. i'll throw in a vote for paper manual, but with a smidge of realistic expectations thrown in.
 
I'm glad to read this! Thanks for posting, Tim and co. I work in production in addition to my job at Redrock, and my *favorite* feeling is the one where the super important thing breaks...and no one has a clue how to fix it. 'We'll fix it in post!'

Ha ha. Right.

Our thinking is, if that kind of situation shows up on set, we're not doing our job right. Of course, things are always going to go wrong. It's the 'I don't know how to do that' part we want to completely eliminate. We're going to make that information as available as we can. Even more so than we do now.

And Henry, thanks for all the manual content suggestions. Don't doubt so much; it's bad for the soul. :laugh:
 
I do remember a 4 or 5 page PDF with pictures on how to set it up almost since the beginning. It may have not been the best of the best but it was pretty straight forward to me. It was just hard to adjust the lens mount because it was much smaller than the mount it sat in.

If anything breaks down on any piece of equipment a manual isn't going to help you. If the battery went dead, it went dead. If the GG went out of whack then somethings wrong. How does a manual solve that? Having the answers for questions about some camera you never used is much different than a malfunctioning piece of equipment. The example of an AC not being able to back focus your unit says that no one checked it before the shoot and/or you didn't ask the AC if they knew how before working with each other. Why ask you may say? Why not. Even if you "expect" he/she to know it, it doesn't hurt to ask. The way you make it sound is that you have tons of problems with adapters that show up only the day of the shoot. I don't think anyone has extra time on a set but when a problem arises with any piece of equipment its either make it work or throw it to the side and move on. Yeah the clients time and money are over your head but with any type of work, something will eventually go wrong and you will need to think fast and get around the situation as quickly and quietly as possible. Having the AC sit on the phone for an hour seems to be wasting the clients money on someone and something that should be handled after the shoot. Again, this applies to equipment thats malfunctioning and not to something like a feature that you don't understand on a piece of equipment.

For me, exploded in-depth diagrams confuse the crap out of me. I usually take apart something just to see how it works on my own. Sometimes it goes wrong like when I tried to switch the disks from one hard drive to another because the spinner thingy went dead. I would have succeeded but there were these little connections under this piece that I pried out that broke and were like paper thin. I still continued to take it apart and put it back together again and next time the spinner thingy dies I can fix it.
 
Andrew Lee said:
And Henry, thanks for all the manual content suggestions. Don't doubt so much; it's bad for the soul. :laugh:
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heh... doubtful, only reason being you guys are already probably selling it as the DIY guide :). thanks for the response andrew.
 
Dennis Wood said:
Heck, I'll give them props. Evidently Brian and co. have read their customer's needs in this regard very well.

I can only offer meek apologies and profer forth on bent knee (and trembling hands) the $1500 bill for the color laser printer we sourced to make this happen . Dr. Deacon, if you're out there reading this, your Sustainable Development class was not in vain as we're using paper recycled from the washroom waste bin :-) Don't worry, we'll dry it first :grin:
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Man, whatever happened to "the customer is always right"? Not sure that I appreciate the humor or can sympathize with your $1,500. bill for a color laser printer because when I got my Brevis with no manual, no online access and no response from customer support, I lost a lot more than that on a cancelled shoot.
 
jbednarski said:
Man, whatever happened to "the customer is always right"? Not sure that I appreciate the humor or can sympathize with your $1,500. bill for a color laser printer because when I got my Brevis with no manual, no online access and no response from customer support, I lost a lot more than that on a cancelled shoot.
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I feel for you man. But honestly...I think you/we should appreciate the fact that he and others like him responds to threads like these. He could have done what some others do and ignore the complaints. Don't be bitter...life goes on....so does a sense of humor.
 
My DIY adapter I got on ebay came with full general 35mm adapter instructions printed off from DVXuser! Also, they included a nice little homemade DVD of how to set it up, clean the internals, and a section on the basics of how DOF works. The disc was labeled with a sharpie, but hey, I thought it was nice-

Just a story I wanted to share, maybe the big players will follow suit someday soon
 
Joe, aplogies if you were offended. The comments were not intended to do anything but elicit a chuckle. A few observations:

1. Our support left much to be desired up to six months ago. Cinevate started literally from a basement, and rapid growth has had it's challenges.

2. We now have a dedicated professional at the end of a dedicated phone line, email support, forum support, video on demand support, our video university series online, and daily scans here to respond to requests for assistance. Joking aside, it's been made abundantly clear that some customers want paper manuals, so we've done our best to comply, ensuring that illustrations are in colour and print is of the highest quality. I proofed these guides personally.

2. We've worked incredibly hard to address any/all issues that have been raised by our users. Looking at the Rev1, Rev2, and Rev2-MC changes, all of which are retrograde friendly, they are all a result of requests from our users. Even the rails system has evolved very quickly based on the same commitment. Aram, Mike and Kwan have laid hands on a Brevis35 prototype and rails system that cost us more than a small house to develop..and demonstrates definitively that no issue has been ignored...all 100% retrograde friendly.

Regardless of what we do, there will still be a few customers that cannot be pleased. Despite my general light heartedness about life, I take these challenges very seriously, as does the entire Cinevate team.

Happy Easter :-)
 
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Look at Walter from WDR35pro adapters.

He's setup just a 2 man show. But when he started out like most manufactures from nothing. He at least have a DVD tutorial of how to set his adapter up.

Sure he has not being putting much money to to research to up his system . But he got the basic right. He made sure his adapters gets shipped with 'how to set it up and use it' DVD then the rest of 'oh sorry', we are still in a mist of spending more money on R & D, so we don't have time for DVD or manuals.

And he did it more then a year ago.
Here is his tutorial that can be downloaded from his site:
http://www.wdr35.com/manuali/wdr35provideotutorial.mov
 
Beat Takeshi said:
If anything breaks down on any piece of equipment a manual isn't going to help you. If the battery went dead, it went dead. If the GG went out of whack then somethings wrong. How does a manual solve that? .
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I can read pretty well. A trouble shooting section ID's problems faster. Many of us can fix the problems - eventually. A well written manual helps you ID the problem faster and in some cases fix it faster.

Regarding the back focus issue. You're right. It should've been double checked before being on set. I should've known that there would be no readily available documentation on how to adjust it and that I'd have to phone/email the manufacturer to find out as back focus adjustment is privileged info and royal pain in the ass requiring the dexterity of an elf (which is probably why they didn't publish it in the first place - not good for sales). My bad.

Regarding problems arising: all three (haven't used M2) are rife with on set problems, one's that can't be anticipated. Some more than others. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten late night calls from other owners in NYC for back adaptors because someone's went down. Timur, you want to chime in on this?

Fortunately, you are blessed with time and talent to forego a manual. Some aren't.

Tim Naylor - DP
www.timnaylor.com

PS. Have you been ever able to solve the dust issue? Wasn't in the manual.
 
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Glenn Coomber said:
Hi,

We beleive that Tim's post makes a good point to us adapter manufacturers. This is an area which we are spending a lot of time improving upon.

We have been working over the last couple of months on step by step tutorials for all of our products and also an FAQ which is constantly being updated as we receive new information.

We currently have this available on www.shoot35.com which is easily accessible. We are also just about to release a troubleshooting section on the website which will cover many of the common setup hurdles.

All of this information is soon being transfered onto a CD which will be provided with all of our products.

Although this thread has now rasied a concern for us, that maybe we should scrap the CD and produce a paper based version instead.

I think from a customer service aspect, we have always answered emails promptly and resolved any issues as quickly as possible.

Please comment on your preference, either CD or paperbased.
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Wayne and co. have always been quick to get back. One of the reasons I still own my SG.

Regarding paper or disc? Both would be nice. But if it must be one. Paper for me or a papyrus scroll I could put on my wall. Really, paper.
 
I guess I haven't had the experience of having an adapter go down yet whether it was mine or someone else's. Most of the people I know with one have the Brevis though and have been using it since it came out. Not saying no one ever has problems with it but its been good to me so far. One thing though, I never lend it out and I never rent it and put it back in its case right after using. Probably the one thing that has not really been tested on most of the adapters is the amount of bumping around it can take before something goes out of wak.
I don't know if its a blessing not to use a manual more than its just being lazy and thinking I can figure it out myself.
 
Tim Naylor said:
Or the old chestnut; my AC whispers to me (out of the cliient's earshot), "I can't get it to focus on infinity". And I say, "collimate it". He responds: "How?". Me: "We'll call Oregon during lunch." Lunch comes by: "No one's picking up the phone". I say, "well go to DVX user". He says, "we've got no internet...". I say, "&*$^#&& bastards."
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Oh hell i remeber that day..... That was fun.
 
I set up my Brevis once and have never had any problems with it after that, on set or otherwise.

What are you guys doing to your adapters that gets them so out of whack you need a manual to address the problem?
 
William_Robinette said:
I set up my Brevis once and have never had any problems with it after that, on set or otherwise.

What are you guys doing to your adapters that gets them so out of whack you need a manual to address the problem?
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Using them. First one I had was for a feature. 12 hours a day/ 6 days a week / 6 weeks. Despite testing it for a week, on set (in Pakistan) it was rife with constant motor failure, alignment and dust issues. A manual would've been a God send. Eventually we figured everything out after constant re-builds. It was the type of experience that turns good people homicidal.
 
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