OTHER: Electronic Variable ND - 2-stop limitation

jmone said:
A actually do that a fair bit (High Base with eVND On) as the exposure range is then very wide. It's not the loss of visual quality that I mostly miss when doing this, but that Auto Focus can start hunting badly with busy back grounds when you are in the higher eVND range on High Base.
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The focus actually performs worse at high base with ND on vs high base with no ND? I would have thought that the signal getting to the sensor was the only consideration. But if that's true then maybe the ND mucks up the phase detect. I wonder if that's an issue at low base as well.
 
Doug Jensen said:
I do think the non-linear performance of the wheel make it faster and easier to use. You spin it fast to get it in the ballpark, then turn it slowly to fine-tune.

Anyway, that's my exexperience.
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That sounds like how manual focus works on focus by wire lenses, and for the same reason
 
ahalpert said:
The focus actually performs worse at high base with ND on vs high base with no ND? I would have thought that the signal getting to the sensor was the only consideration. But if that's true then maybe the ND mucks up the phase detect. I wonder if that's an issue at low base as well.
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I've only ever noticed the AF Hunting with HiBase + eVND. No other combo. LowBase + eVND is fine. Also fine with eVND OFF with either Hi or Low Base.
 
jmone said:
I've only ever noticed the AF Hunting with HiBase + eVND. No other combo. LowBase + eVND is fine. Also fine with eVND OFF with either Hi or Low Base.
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Are you talking about the FX6?
AF on that camera is only good enough for two things: 1) Humans. 2) Touch tracking where you tell the camera what to focus on. It is almost flawless when used for those two things.

In every other mode, AF isn't good enough to trust all on it's own -- no matter whether you are using ND or Hi or Low or whatever. It can't be trusted.
 
Run&Gun said:
Having "grown up" with broadcast ENG cameras, on cameras like my Amira and 35 that have electronic mechanical sliding systems, I actually miss the sound and feel of the "thunk" from turning the turret and hearing and feeling it engage into position.
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Yeah, me too, at first! :) I kept thinking something wasn't working. But once you get used to it being silent I wouldn't go back to the thunk.
 
Hello!I have a question regarding the variable ND.I am not a professional at all , just love to make documentaries from my private excursions all over the world , with emphasis on wildlife.So I prefer a good picture out of the box with hopefully only little work in post .No log profiles , no HLG , just s-cinetone and ITU709 ,all should fit to my Sony VW760 beamer.
And I adapted cinetone and 709 quite successfully to this chain of equipment with little preference for cinetone in my settings.
BUT , here in Innsbruck/ Austria we now have fantastic bright weather with incredible contrast of the white walls of the houses in my neighborhood , blue sky , dry and clear air over the mountains.

And here the autoND shows quite a disturbing overexposure , I am not used to at all.Neither with the manual NDs of my Z90 nor with all my former Sony Camcorders out of the semiprofessional Camcorder portfolio.

I never had to use zebra before , everything did well without.But now it is essential for me , take the 100% and unfortunately now it takes me quite a lot of manipulation to manually bring down the zebra by switching off AutoND and carefully turn the wheel up until it fits.Thanks god that I‘ve already seen the antarctica and arctic region with its extreme snowy contrasts.And this is a big issue for me when filming wildlife , when footage sometimes has to be nailed in seconds.
I have no idea how to solve this problem.
When light is getting darker because of evening coming up , problem resolves itself due to contrasts disappearing.
In the 709 mode I set knee to point 87 and slope to +28 , sky looks good but overexposure of bright content of the whole picture area cannot be influenced - expect manually .And in s- cinetone , knee function is disabled but it looks good , the same like 709.
Is there any function left I did not check? To my impression , the amount of blocking light in the Auto ND Mode is not enough or not well balanced .

Beside this , I have a second problem I could not solve - the LCD and viewfinder picture is flat in contrast to the end- result on the screen back home, especially in the s- cinetone mode.
Any idea?
With best regards, Robert
 
ahalpert said:
bertl2606 said:
Hello!I have a question regarding the variable ND.I am not a professional at all , just love to make documentaries from my private excursions all over the world , with emphasis on wildlife.So I prefer a good picture out of the box with hopefully only little work in post .No log profiles , no HLG , just s-cinetone and ITU709 ,all should fit to my Sony VW760 beamer.
And I adapted cinetone and 709 quite successfully to this chain of equipment with little preference for cinetone in my settings.
BUT , here in Innsbruck/ Austria we now have fantastic bright weather with incredible contrast of the white walls of the houses in my neighborhood , blue sky , dry and clear air over the mountains.

And here the autoND shows quite a disturbing overexposure , I am not used to at all.Neither with the manual NDs of my Z90 nor with all my former Sony Camcorders out of the semiprofessional Camcorder portfolio.

I never had to use zebra before , everything did well without.But now it is essential for me , take the 100% and unfortunately now it takes me quite a lot of manipulation to manually bring down the zebra by switching off AutoND and carefully turn the wheel up until it fits.Thanks god that I‘ve already seen the antarctica and arctic region with its extreme snowy contrasts.And this is a big issue for me when filming wildlife , when footage sometimes has to be nailed in seconds.
I have no idea how to solve this problem.
When light is getting darker because of evening coming up , problem resolves itself due to contrasts disappearing.
In the 709 mode I set knee to point 87 and slope to +28 , sky looks good but overexposure of bright content of the whole picture area cannot be influenced - expect manually .And in s- cinetone , knee function is disabled but it looks good , the same like 709.
Is there any function left I did not check? To my impression , the amount of blocking light in the Auto ND Mode is not enough or not well balanced .

Beside this , I have a second problem I could not solve - the LCD and viewfinder picture is flat in contrast to the end- result on the screen back home, especially in the s- cinetone mode.
Any idea?
With best regards, Robert
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I've had similar problems but not in snow country but in very strong sun on very white sandy beaches. And as you say, a lot of white buildings. In trying to work out if there was any way in overcoming the problem of over exposure when using the Auto ND, I discovered there is. In trying to sort out the problem, it drove me to the service manual for some ideas. After reading that the solution was quite simple, actually.

I discovered the VSW-1001 board in the FX6 is the main process control board for most of the 'Auto' functions in the camera. And certain circuits are linked. The AUTO ND and AUTO IRIS circuits are cross-linked and work in harmony with one another on this board. The AUTO IRIS circuit being the primary level control circuit. The AUTO ND circuit takes its primary level cues from the AUTO IRIS level controller. In other words, it slaves to the AUTO IRIS level setting.

SOLUTION. Why I didn't think to try it out before I have no idea as it is so b****y obvious???

What I did was go into the SHOOTING menu, then the ASSIGNABLE DIAL menu and then selected the HANDLE DIAL and reprogrammed it to AE LEVEL.

Now, at any time my AUTO ND is over or under exposing, I can just roll the handle dial to either increase or decrease the exposure level of the Auto Iris circuit. You now have access to a big over / under range of +/- 3.0 stops. The AUTO ND circuit now takes its variable level cues from whatever the base AUTO IRIS circuit is at. Be it over or under. The camera generally will now deliver you your desired exposures. As I say, easily corrected if the exposure is drifting out by having that handle dial control over the auto iris' starting level. Just roll over or under as required.

I find that the FX6 AF tends to be less accurate if the image IS over exposed. Also, it depends on the lens used and whether the focus mode is set to WIDE / ZONE or FLEXIBLE SPOT. Different lenses respond differently, even when used in the same focus mode selection. This was quite an issue with the FX9. Hopefully the above Auto ND / Auto Exposure solution will help sort that problem on the FX6 in similar situations.

I think we would all love to see a 1 stop jump on the variable ND instead of 2 stops. For that reason, I carry an ND2, (optical density 0.3), which is 1 stop. Which works fine for those in between scenarios.

If you go to page #110 of the latest v5 FX6 manual and look at the right-hand columns, and you will find if you are shooting in "SDR (BT.709) and HDR (HLG) Common" Sony also suggests the following settings. This helps compensate with that 2 stop loss when the E-ND is in and 2 stops is too much at the lower end. It is to move your Custom 709 Low-Base from ISO 320 to ISO 800 and your Hi-Base ISO from 5000 to 12,800. I've done this a few times so far and as I said with no adverse issues at all. Touch wood! These are also the standard base ISO setting for shooting in HLG and S-LOG mode.

As for the contrast of the LCD, I haven't found a way to improve the in Custom 709 mode.


Chris Young
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When I get to test a Z200 I was hoping the use of the exposure compensation would not be needed very much. For my current Panasonic CX-350 I run a permanent -13 exposure compensation as the camera always misses to the overexposure side. Auto anything is great until it does not delivery what you want!
 
Did it today , NX800 has a different anatomy , no handle dial but I saved the AE LEVEL to an assignable buttom and adjust the value with the wheel of main menue now. Much easier , finer and more comfortable.But the general issue of Auto ND steps , discussed above , remains of course.best regards!
 
bertl2606 said:
Did it today , NX800 has a different anatomy , no handle dial but I saved the AE LEVEL to an assignable buttom and adjust the value with the wheel of main menue now. Much easier , finer and more comfortable.But the general issue of Auto ND steps , discussed above , remains of course.best regards!
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Sorry, I didn't realize you were referring to an NX800. For some idea, I got into my head it was an FX6 being discussed? It sounds like it does deliver some benefits, though. It's a shame if it steps when adjusting. The FX6 tends to be fairly seamless in its adjustment.

Chris Young
 
Bassman2003 said:
When I get to test a Z200 I was hoping the use of the exposure compensation would not be needed very much. For my current Panasonic CX-350 I run a permanent -13 exposure compensation as the camera always misses to the overexposure side. Auto anything is great until it does not delivery what you want!
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Look, I think most auto exposure modes tend to look to peaks of 109 IRE which is way too high, necessitating a value change for the auto exposure calculations. Very, very rare that I use auto exposure, but as a general rule I set the auto exposure compensation on later model Sony Cameras to -1.0 stops. In auto mode I generally wouldn't want to see peaks over 90 IRE so adjust the under exposure value to deliver those 90 IRE peaks.

Chris Young
 
It's so much easier just to run the cameras on full manual exposure. If you're gonna mess around with moving AE up and down manually, then just set the exposure manually in the first place. I'll bet I spend half as much effort, and with zero stress, by just keeping auto turned off. The camera is not smarter than me. And setting exposure manually is simple. If someone doesn't think it's simple, then they are probably doing something the wrong way. The solution isn't to beat AE into submission, it is to learn to set exposure manually.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
It's so much easier just to run the cameras on full manual exposure. If you're gonna mess around with moving AE up and down manually, then just set the exposure manually in the first place. I'll bet I spend half as much effort, and with zero stress, by just keeping auto turned off. The camera is not smarter than me. And setting exposure manually is simple. If someone doesn't think it's simple, then they are probably doing something the wrong way. The solution isn't to beat AE into submission, it is to learn to set exposure manually.
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+ 1. !00% to that. Feel safe manually. Like, I would rather drive the car than have some AI do it!

Chris Young
 
I did not read thru the thread but replying to the original post...yes, i would be on board w/ a single stop. Surprising how many times i get caught in that situation. I usually bump to the high base to deal with it...but it would be nice to not have to.
 
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