OTHER: Electronic Variable ND - 2-stop limitation

[Doug Jensen]

Anyone who has used a camera with Sony's proprietary electronic variable ND knows how great it is. I really hate it when I have to use an old-fashioned camera that doesn't have it. But that 2-stop minimum can be tough to work around. It's surprising how often I want to use some ND, but 2-stops is too much. Anyone else run into that issue? What if we could get Sony to make a VND system that started at 1-stop? Would anyone else be interested? Would you pay extra for it if it increased the cost of the camera? Just thinking out loud after shooting a parade yesterday evening at dusk with constantly changing light.


Brian: "There's no pleasing some people."
Ex-leper: "That's just what Jesus said, sir."

 

[ahalpert]

"Old-fashioned camera" lol

Wouldn't they have gone to 1 stop if they could? You really think it's just a question of expense?

But I agree, it's such a fundamental stumbling block that it's worth quite a lot to have that function. I'd easily pay $1k more for an FX6 that went to 1 stop than for one that couldn't.

 

[drboffa]

Isn't a 2-stop minimum pretty standard for internal NDs? (on mid-tier cameras, at least)

Perhaps that's why they went with it, or part of the reason.

In any event, yes, I'd love if 1-stop were the minimum. That said, the FX6 is so clean that often I'm fine with bumping the gain/ISO by a stop to make up for the difference. Where I have had some concerns is when I'm right at the edge of the low/hi ISO/gain, and covering that 1-stop difference means going to the high setting, which I must accept will have more noise than the low setting (unless I'm rating the camera a stop slower to keep it cleaner, but that gets me right back where I was...).

 

[jmone]

I have three things I wish Sony would improve with the eVND:
- Start at a lower strength say 1/2 as 1/4 is too high of a starting point (I end up having to switch between bases in some situations as a result)
- Have better/finer graduation at the lower end of the range (I can see changes in exposure when it starts going up from 1/4, but not when it come down from 1/128).
- Improved autofocus when using eVND and HiBase (it tends to hunt a lot on some compositions).

I'd be happy to pay for these improvements as I'm not going back to a non-eVND cam.

 

[Jim Feeley]

Panavision's electronic LCND starts at one stop. AFAIK, only a rental item (because Panavision). I don't know how close Panavision's tech is to Sony's, but perhaps Sony could built something that starts at one stop? Ya, I'd pay extra for that.

LCND | Panavision

Panavision’s LCND is a groundbreaking liquid-crystal neutral-density filter that can be dynamically adjusted from ND0.3 to ND1.8. The filter is available in both top- and side-load versions.

www.panavision.com

 

[Doug Jensen]

Wouldn't they have gone to 1 stop if they could? You really think it's just a question of expense?

When eVND came out a few years ago I had a conversation with one of the Sony engineers at NAB, and I got the impression that a 1-stop filter might be possible but for some reason it would cost more to manufacture. As you say, most regular built-in ND filters start at 2-stops anyway, so 2-stops seemed okay at the time. But now I've gotten spoiled and I'd like to have a filter that goes from 1/2 to 1/128. It's kind of like having an LED light that can only dim to 20%.

 

[jmone]

The ideal would be from 0 to 1/128. There must be some base loss of light just brining in the eVND module, and the extra expense would be how "clear" they can make the LCD module to start with before they start applying the voltage to vary the ND strength. The other thing, is I already see the "jump" from 1/4 to 1/5 so if they could get a base as low as 1/2 then they would not want to jump to 1/4 in one step or it would be even more noticeable as you would be halving the light in one go.

FWIW, from what I can tell, the Sony eVND is not a continually variable ND system, but has discreate stops at 1 over 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 16, 19, 23, 27, 32, 38, 45, 54, 64, 76, 91, 108, and 128.

 

[DustinSchmidt]

Apparently the company that licenses the eND tech to a lot of larger companies just made a deal with Metabones and they have a new adapter that has a switch to go from no ND to activating the eND. Unfortunately still starts at 2 stops. But nice to see the tech getting more traction in other areas.

 

[ahalpert]

. The other thing, is I already see the "jump" from 1/4 to 1/5 so if they could get a base as low as 1/2 then they would not want to jump to 1/4 in one step or it would be even more noticeable as you would be halving the light in one go.

It's not going to be more noticeable than putting a filter in your mattebox or screwing one in, or even slapping on a magnetic filter

I get what you're saying about not being able to use the footage with the exposure shift, at least not without compensating in post

 

[jmone]

Here is an interview with (I think) the mfr behind the eVND in Sony Cams.

He was asked if it would be possible to have a permanent eVND that would start at 0 stops. The short answer was "no", he did say they can do 1.5 --> 5 Stops of the one they were showing (and mentioned that the current internal one in cameras run from 2 --> 7 Stops). He did say it was infinitely variable, so not sure why we have "fixed" stops currently in Sony's implementation.

 

[Doug Jensen]

Thanks for posting, that's an interesting interview. It's still my understanding that a 1-stop filter might be possbile. Heck, if a manufacturer was willing to take 2-stop hit on their light sensitivity right out of the gate, they could leave the filter on all the time and call it 0 - 5 stops, if they wanted to. Probably not a good idea though unless there are some amazing advancements made in sensor technology.

One thing I didn't mention, for the benefit of those of you who do not have a Z200 at your disposal, the filter goes in and out completely silently now. On previous cameras there was an audible "thunk" when the filter engaged or disengaged, but not anymore. Totally silent.

 

[ahalpert]

Thanks for posting, that's an interesting interview. It's still my understanding that a 1-stop filter might be possbile. Heck, if a manufacturer was willing to take 2-stop hit on their light sensitivity right out of the gate, they could leave the filter on all the time and call it 0 - 5 stops, if they wanted to. Probably not a good idea though unless there are some amazing advancements made in sensor technology.

One thing I didn't mention, for the benefit of those of you who do not have a Z200 at your disposal, the filter goes in and out completely silently now. On previous cameras there was an audible "thunk" when the filter engaged or disengaged, but not anymore. Totally silent.

Hey, you can just leave it on and pretend you have 0-5 stops. With a 2-stop exposure boost mode available!

 

[cyvideo]

... It's surprising how often I want to use some ND, but 2-stops is too much. Anyone else run into that issue? What if we could get Sony to make a VND system that started at 1-stop? Would anyone else be interested? Would you pay extra for it if it increased the cost of the camera? Just thinking out loud after shooting a parade yesterday evening at dusk with constantly changing light.

Yes, frequently. Yes, a 1 stop step would be far better. Yes, I would pay extra if it was within reason. And at the same time see if there is a development that eliminates the weird color casts and shifts, minor though they may be, that can appear in certain situations when using an additional polarizer with the internal E-ND. As many have pointed out. Including you in your early tests. I carry a 1 stop ND for that reason, to cover the two stop jump. I guess if this happens, it will all be on the 6 Mk II?

Chris Young

Brian: "There's no pleasing some people."
Ex-leper: "That's just what Jesus said, sir."

 

[Doug Jensen]

Hey, you can just leave it on and pretend you have 0-5 stops. With a 2-stop exposure boost mode available!

Yeah, that's one way of looking at it. Too bad none of the current crop of cameras are sensitive enough to take a routine 2-stop hit. I shoot a lot of slow-mo at 120 fps and that needs light, and lots of it.

 

[ahalpert]

Yeah, that's one way of looking at it. Too bad none of the current crop of cameras are sensitive enough to take a routine 2-stop hit. I shoot a lot of slow-mo at 120 fps and that needs light, and lots of it.

You could live at high base ISO? But I'm guessing you've already nixed that idea. Or is that still not enough exposure?

I think the A9III has a base ISO of 2000 in s-log3... Maybe that would be a good enough starting place if they put it in a video camera...

But I don't think it has a high base ISO. And it also has slightly less DR to begin with.

 

[Doug Jensen]

FWIW, from what I can tell, the Sony eVND is not a continually variable ND system, but has discreate stops at 1 over 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 16, 19, 23, 27, 32, 38, 45, 54, 64, 76, 91, 108, and 128.

I think you're wrong on this point. Yes, the display in the viewfinder that shows the ND value skips certain numbers, but the performance of the ND is continually variable. For example, even though the display may jump from 1/54 to 1/64, there are still visible gradations between those numbers.

Have you ever looked at it with a real waveform monitor? I have a Leader LV-5330, and here's how I just tested the eVND on the Z200: I placed a white card on a dark background and then used the variable dial to move the highlights up and down. I can choose any spot on the waveform monitor and place the highlight right at that exact spot -- 92%, 86%, 54%, or whatever. And there are no sudden jumps, not even little ones. So, if I can precisely place the highlight at any point I want, then it has to be continuously variable.

I did notice that the changes are not totally linear, though, and that may have led you to your incorrect conclusion. There's kind of a rubber band effect where the changes want to slow down at certain values as you spin the dial, and then they will spring forward a little bit, and then slow down again, etc. The best analogy I could give you is if you walked quickly down a sidewalk, and then slowed down, then walked quickly, and slowed down. But you're always moving forward smoothly, unlike if you jumped or hopped from point to point.

I do think the non-linear performance of the wheel make it faster and easier to use. You spin it fast to get it in the ballpark, then turn it slowly to fine-tune.

Anyway, that's my experience.

 

[Doug Jensen]

You could live at high base ISO? But I'm guessing you've already nixed that idea. Or is that still not enough exposure?

I think the A9III has a base ISO of 2000 in s-log3... Maybe that would be a good enough starting place if they put it in a video camera...

But I don't think it has a high base ISO. And it also has slightly less DR to begin with.

No I can't. The Z200 does not have dual ISO, and the FX6 does not look as good at HIGH as it does at LOW. There's definitely a difference between the two and I try to only use HIGH when absolutely necessary. Especially when shooting slow-mo because HIGH just exacerbates the lower quality of HIGH.

 

[jmone]

@DougJensen - Thanks for testing regarding the variability and debunking my conclusion. I only tried using the built in Waveform to see what was happening. The "visible" effect I see is when in Auto eVND and when moving off the lower end of the range (1/4) and start ramping up. I see a change in exposure.... but thinking about it, it could be it is at it's minimum of 1/4 but really needs something less (say 1/2) so it is underexposed to start with and the jump I'm seeing is just going from under exposed to correctly exposed?

 

[jmone]

You could live at high base ISO? But I'm guessing you've already nixed that idea. Or is that still not enough exposure?

A actually do that a fair bit (High Base with eVND On) as the exposure range is then very wide. It's not the loss of visual quality that I mostly miss when doing this, but that Auto Focus can start hunting badly with busy back grounds when you are in the higher eVND range on High Base.

 

[Run&Gun]

Thanks for posting, that's an interesting interview. It's still my understanding that a 1-stop filter might be possbile. Heck, if a manufacturer was willing to take 2-stop hit on their light sensitivity right out of the gate, they could leave the filter on all the time and call it 0 - 5 stops, if they wanted to. Probably not a good idea though unless there are some amazing advancements made in sensor technology.

One thing I didn't mention, for the benefit of those of you who do not have a Z200 at your disposal, the filter goes in and out completely silently now. On previous cameras there was an audible "thunk" when the filter engaged or disengaged, but not anymore. Totally silent.

Having "grown up" with broadcast ENG cameras, on cameras like my Amira and 35 that have electronic mechanical sliding systems, I actually miss the sound and feel of the "thunk" from turning the turret and hearing and feeling it engage into position.

But to your original question, I'd love to see a system that starts at 1 stop. I know this is physical and not electronic, but It's one of the few things that disappoints me about the 35 vs. the Venice. The 35 just has clear, 2, 4 & 6 stops, while the Venice has 0-8 in single stop increments.