Editing in FCP using H.264

countjus

countjus

Member
I edit with an i7, 27 inch mac and the Latest version of Final Cut Studio. I am not a pro editor but As of late many professional projects have been thrust on me. I was wondering if I could get the opinions from my more experienced peers.
I am currently editing the first season of a series/ reality show. With that being said, there is a massive amount of footage and storage space is becoming an issue. Converting all clips to a ProRes (HQ) format has been my workflow for a while now, but for this extensive project it might be a little too much for my storage situation. Would it make sense to edit in the H.264 format and then export the finish product as ProRes to color grade? Is this unheard of? All help is much appreciated!!!!! Thanx!!!!
 
You haven't indicated which camcorder produces the h.264 footage, but HQ is way overkill for h.264

Use ProRes 422 LT to save a bunch of storage space.

Editing stops being editing when you are working with h.264. Convert, and save yourself a bunch of headaches.
 
As the venerable Andrew Kramer says, there are two things you never want to do in life:

1.) Jump from a moving train
2.) Edit with a delivery codec such as h.264

Transcode. If quality isn't a huge issue, I'd transcode to Pro-Res LT or even Pro-Res Proxy
 
ikander said:
As the venerable Andrew Kramer says, there are two things you never want to do in life:

1.) Jump from a moving train
2.) Edit with a delivery codec such as h.264

Transcode. If quality isn't a huge issue, I'd transcode to Pro-Res LT or even Pro-Res Proxy
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I would not take native Panasonic P2 video clips and convert them to h.264 but if you have h.264 native clips why waste time transcoding if you don't need to?

I say drpp the native clips into the FCP timeline add some CC and see if FCP can do a decent job with the native codec. If your computer has the horse power to edit h.264 you might as well use the native codec. If it is a reality show the camera men should get decent footage so I doubt you will have to do any over the edge color correction but I could be wrong. I doubt chromakey will be an issue either but I could be wrong. Should you need to do chromakey the Pro Res might make chromakeying easier but other wise I would like to think you could use the native h.264 codec.
 
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medeamajic said:
I would not take native Panasonic P2 video clips and convert them to h.264 but if you have h.264 native clips why waste time transcoding if you don't need to?
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Who suggested taking native files from a P2 and converting to h.264? There's no point to that. But h.264 is a distribution format intended for the end viewer and is not suited to editing.

medeamajic said:
I say drpp the native clips into the FCP timeline add some CC and see FCP can do a decent job with the native codec. If your computer has the horse power to edit h.264 you might as well use the native codec. If it is a reality show the camera men should get decent footage so I doubt you will have to do any over the edge color correction but I could be wrong. I doubt chromakey will be an issue either but I could be wrong. Should you need to do chromakey the Pro Res might make chromakeying easier but other wise I would like to think you coudl use the native h.264 codec.
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Editing h.264 is clunky and unreliable. Yes, there are some NLEs out there that now offer native h.264 editing... but what's the point? You're taking a motion-compensation codec and trying to do fine detail work with the signal.

This is like trying to record and edit audio in MP3... which is also a distribution format and is intended only for end-users. Yeah, you can do it, but it's not recommended by any means.
 
J Davis said:
It depends on what your editing and the extensiveness of the edit.
If I have simple edits, family stuff I throw h264 files on a timeline, cut, ripple, export, done.
If I'm on a job where we are continually altering in/out points, cross fade edits, dip to color edits,
lower thirds you name it there is no way h264 would fly.
Remember in 24p, h264 is only two frames a second. The other 22 frames are interpreted sequentially from those two.
eg to see frame 4 you get frame 1, calculate frame 2, from that the processor calculates frame 3, from that the processor calculates frame 4.
a mental picture it would kinda look like this
i..........i...........i..........i...........
(where the i represents the i frame and the . represents the next eleven calculated frames)

if you edit and your second clip starts on frame 4 then it may look like this
i...........i...........i...(edit point).......i...........i...........
so you see the frames after the edit point are now dependent on an i frame that is not even in the timeline!
And that's just on a simple cut. Dissolves are the worst and most prone to errors.

h264 is a great delivery codec and was never meant to be an editing codec.
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=2071129#post2071129
 
C2V said:
Who suggested taking native files from a P2 and converting to h.264? There's no point to that. But h.264 is a distribution format intended for the end viewer and is not suited to editing.



Editing h.264 is clunky and unreliable. Yes, there are some NLEs out there that now offer native h.264 editing... but what's the point? You're taking a motion-compensation codec and trying to do fine detail work with the signal.

This is like trying to record and edit audio in MP3... which is also a distribution format and is intended only for end-users. Yeah, you can do it, but it's not recommended by any means.
Click to expand...


I would not choose to edit MP3 files but if a client gave me an MP3 file I would infact edit that native MP3 file. I would not transcode into another audio codec. I also edit native AVCHD for clients.

The point is you should not edit with h.264 in order to save hard drive space. On the other hand if your system can edit h.264 or even native AVCHD then go for it. My system can and I get good CC results. I should mention I use Premiere Pro CS4 on a Core i7 system but even my Core 2 Quad could edit native AVCHD. 6 years ago people used an intermediate codec to edit native HDV but who in the hell uses an intermediate codec to edit native HDV now days? I would like to think FCP on an i7 system should be able to handle native h.264. If FCP stutters an drops frames with native AVCHD or h.264 then you will have to transcode.
 
medeamajic said:
6 years ago people used an intermediate codec to edit native HDV but who in the hell uses an intermediate codec to edit native HDV now days? I would like to think FCP on an i7 system should be able to handle native h.264. If FCP stutters an drops frames with native AVCHD or h.264 then you will have to transcode.
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Even HDV needs to be converted to something, since the Long-GOP encoding of HDV is not edit-friendly. Don't know who's using AIC, since most folks are now using ProRes.

And take a look at what J Davis posted about h.264 and why editing with it isn't practical for anything but cuts-only.
 
C2V said:
Even HDV needs to be converted to something, since the Long-GOP encoding of HDV is not edit-friendly. Don't know who's using AIC, since most folks are now using ProRes.

And take a look at what J Davis posted about h.264 and why editing with it isn't practical for anything but cuts-only.
Click to expand...

J Davis?

Who cares?

It is because his system is to inept to edit native h.264. While h.264 is not as good of quality as the Panasonic P2 codec it can be edited in realtime on i7 systems. My system can edit HDV with ease and I can even do secondary CC with ease. If FCP can not get decent CC with native HDV you should switch to Premiere Pro or at the very least try the demo. Try Edius if you want to although Canopus does not have a Mac version. I can not think of a PC editing program than can not edit native HDV with ease on a quad core system. Most are starting to edit native AVCHD and H.264 with FX applied in realtime. I admit h.264 and AVCHD are hard codecs for the CPU to calculate but it can be done using an i7 system.

I think you need to learn to think outside of the Apple paradigm my friend. I can edit native HDV as easy as editing Mini DV-25 was 5 years ago. I can also do great CC with HDV. I admit it may be a different story when using FCP with native HDV but to suggest everyone one needs to transcode native HDV into the Apple Pro Res is absurd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY33kyQ52hg

I am editing native HDV and native AVCHD with ease to a 1080P NTSC TV using an $800.00 PC. I did invest in a Blu-ray since I made this video but for less than a grand editing native h.264 and AVCHD for Blu-ray out put is possible (software not included). I do not have CS5. The Mercury Playback Engine of CS5 is a lot better than what CS4 uses for realtime playback.
 
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medeamajic said:
I think you need to learn to think outside of the Apple paradigm my friend. I can edit native HDV as easy as editing Mini DV-25 was 5 years ago. I can also do great CC with HDV. I admit it may be a different story when using FCP with native HDV but to suggest everyone one needs to transcode native HDV into the Apple Pro Res is absurd.
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Okay. This is starting to become a flame war, which I don't understand.

So you can edit native h.264. Fantastic. But you may not have noticed that this thread is in the Final Cut Pro forum, so the advice herein really does apply to FCP users. If you want to bash Apple/Final Cut and tout the merits of whatever other NLE you want, this is not the place.
 
C2V said:
Okay. This is starting to become a flame war, which I don't understand.

So you can edit native h.264. Fantastic. But you may not have noticed that this thread is in the Final Cut Pro forum, so the advice herein really does apply to FCP users. If you want to bash Apple/Final Cut and tout the merits of whatever other NLE you want, this is not the place.
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The orignal post asked if editing native h.264 is OK. As far as countjus editing native h.264 that is totaly up to him/her but even Avid boasted the ability to edit native h.264 at NAB. I think my info is valid and is not a flame war. I do think people can get caught up in an inept paradigm and out side info can be enlightening at times.
 
The original poster was inquiring about using FCP.

Whether Premiere can edit h.264 natively or not isn't the issue. Nor did the OP ask that question.

If you wish to start your own thread about using h.264 natively in Premiere or another NLE, start that thread in the appropriate NLE forum.

But let's get back on the same page and deal with FCP and OP's suggested workflow within FCP.

Thanks
 
Lossy compression means your image quality degrades. This will happen whether your system can handle it or not.

The problem is not the computer or the software, it's the codec.

Sure you can have software and computers powerful enough ... but you are saving back to a codec that degrades the image at every edit.

If you're okay with that, go for it.
 
David S. said:
The original poster was inquiring about using FCP.

Whether Premiere can edit or not isn't the issue.

Let's get back on topic.

If you wish to start your own thread about using h.264 Premiere, start it in the Premiere section.

But let's get back on the same page and deal with FCP.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I am on the same page. I stated editing H.264 might work out OK depending on your system and what you are editing. Later people posted a bunch of miss information that I corrected.

It should be welcomed not disscouraged.
 
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Chill relax. So far I don't think anyone is offended. Certainly not me.

FCP is way behind premiere. The last version was a pulled punch which means its been two
years since anything major. That's a given.

My point is even if FCP could handle editing h264 as well as premiere ... why would you do it?

Like C2V said, its like editing audio with mp3's.

Imagine having an awesome multi track editor and saving every edit point back to your hard drive as mp3, then opening them all back up again
and re-compressing them when its time to export.
 
J Davis said:
Lossy compression means your image quality degrades. This will happen whether your system can handle it or not.

The problem is not the computer or the software, it's the codec.

Sure you can have software and computers powerful enough ... but you are saving back to a codec that degrades the image at every edit.

If you're okay with that, go for it.
Click to expand...


I agree. It depends on what you are editing. H.264 and AVCHD are not the best codecs out there but they are both being used. Provided the lighting is OK and you are not making use of chromakey editing native h.264 might work OK. I imagine a reality show will be a lot of cuts only editing style but I could be wrong. Only countjus will now if he can get away with using the h.264 codec.
 
Again, a reminder.

The OP is working in FCP and asked:

"Would it make sense to edit in the H.264 format and then export the finish product as ProRes to color grade? Is this unheard of?"

Respond to this question within the context of FCP, or start your own thread in the appropriate NLE of your choice.

This thread is not purposed to discuss the relative merits of native editing in Premiere, Edius, Vegas, or any other NLE.

It is to address the question asked.

thanks again.
 
David S.

Missinformation got entered into the threed. My responses adressed the miss information. Please read the whole thread again.

Had just one person stated they had edit several projects using h.264 and FCP I would not have made a post at all. Avid did boast about the ability to edit h.264 so obviously it must be OK to do it for certain projects. The info is valid to comments made on this thread. I do not regret anything I posted nor should. What is your problem with me supplying proof and giving an alternative answer to the question? That is all I did. Nothing more nothing less. I hope you can accept that becuase I merely drew examples from other software programs to adress some of the comments made on this thread. I hope you can you accept that is what really happened?
 
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