Dynamic range on RED

C

casey warren

Active member
I dont know if this has already been discussed, but, I was wondering how the dynamic range of RED will compare to film...or will it be more similar to the dynamic range on CMOS DSLR's like the Canon 5D, or 1Ds.

Also, when shooting in RAW mode with a DSLR, i have used a method for creating faux HDR images from one picture....using the exposure settings and exporting multiple TIFFs and then merging them into a 32bit HDR...I was wondering if this same workflow can be applied to footage from RED when shot in RAW mode.
 
Red are aiming for a dynamic range somewhere between 12 and 15 stops.
Resolution is not only high on their agenda but lattitude and dynamics. We will soon see how they have faired in September when we see the footage for the first time. Hope that helps.

Michael
 
It's too soon to know what the dynamic range of the camera will be. I'm sure the RED target in this regard is high, but nothing matters but actual performance.

In the case of moving images, you can't use still camera multiple exposure techniques to create HDR images (except for completely static subjects) simply because the separate images will be moving and the multiple exposures will not have exactly the same registration. This is true of even the most minimal movement between exposures.
 
Thanks Greg and Mike... took the words out of my mouth. The dynamic range is going to help obviously as well by the RAW aspect of the image.. giving a little extra latitude where it counts.
 
Like most HD imagery are we going to be looking at more latitude on the shadow side as opposed to highlights?
 
I'm very optimistic about it, from checking out the SI's images. They truly managed to record an impressive dynamic range, and although it's a different sensor, it can give us a pallpark figure. I think saying RED's dynamic range will be in the same range as film's is not an overstatement. But, the wait and see rule still apply, of course.
 
mike the beginner said:
Red are aiming for a dynamic range somewhere between 12 and 15 stops.
Resolution is not only high on their agenda but lattitude and dynamics. We will soon see how they have faired in September when we see the footage for the first time. Hope that helps.

Michael
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On the RED's website is mentioned 66db which is almost equal to 11 stops. 15 stops is way unrealistic dynamic range for a single sensor with a pixel pitch of 5.4 microns (which is unavoidable for such a high resolution in S35), but "real" 11 stops is a respectable dynamic range.
 
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Robert Sanders said:
What is the dynamic range of an HVX or XL-H1? Out of curiosity for comparison sakes.
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That's a good question! Manufacturers of 1/3" cameras do not usually publish the dynamic range, but someone in another forum mentioned 7-8 stops (didn't test HVX). Although I have bought recently a Z1, I haven't measured it's latitude; maybe it's time to do so...

The pixel pitch of RED is similar to most of these HDV cameras because their native resolution is much lower (~960 horizontal res except canon's which is 1440). So Z1 has a pixel pitch of 5 microns vs 5.4 RED's but it has 3 CCD... Also Z1 and HVX use pixel shift (sensor shift) which make comparisons more difficult. Another difference is that RED uses a CMOS sensor that might be the reason of this increase...
 
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On a second thought, even in a full 35mm still frame it would be very difficult to provide 15 stops... so I removed my estimation...

Also, many cameras with larger pixels didn't meet dynamic range expectations, it's all about the technology used and the implementation...
 
It all depends on how you measure stops of dynamic range. The Varicam, for instance can claim 13 stops when set up correctly. However, I'm sure it doesn't have a 78db S/N ratio :-) We're going for greater than 66db S/N ratio, so around 12 stops is quite likely from the strict mathematics of it, but depending on what measuring magic they used to get that figure from the Varicam, it could behave like more than 12 stops in reality. But I think we'll just have to wait and see on this, but I think the dynamic range will be very good, and much more than most video people are used to :-)

Graeme
 
Proteus said:
On a second thought, even in a full 35mm still frame it would be very difficult to provide 15 stops... so I removed my estimation...

Also, many cameras with larger pixels didn't meet dynamic range expectations, it's all about the technology used and the implementation...
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I agree with my 3D pal, Proteus.
 
Thats increadible.

I think Dynamic Range is more important than pure resolution anyway. One of the reasons i like the DVX so much was its wider Dynamic range than anyother camera at the time. I look forward to the future. Hope fully someday i will be ablle to work on a RED production.
 
We are now getting 4k color footage from the sensor. I think people will be stunned at what we are now able to do. We are all wound up tight over this project. And sprinting to IBC. Lots of changes to the body and cages. Much better integration. Can't wait to show what we have been up to.

Jim
 
Robert Sanders said:
What is the dynamic range of an HVX or XL-H1? Out of curiosity for comparison sakes.
Click to expand...

The HVX pushes 7 stops. 11 stops is incredible, 15 will melt people's brains.. but i dont think it's likely. Highlights are always the kicker... and im pretty confident the mysterium is going to handle the highs very well.
 
Jannard said:
We are now getting 4k color footage from the sensor. I think people will be stunned at what we are now able to do. We are all wound up tight over this project. And sprinting to IBC. Lots of changes to the body and cages. Much better integration. Can't wait to show what we have been up to.

Jim
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GREAT!
 
If a mere beginner like me gets so excited you guys must be jumping up and down like you have won the lottery.

Jim Jannard, you really do know how to torture and delight us at the same time:crybaby: :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)


I think Jarrad got it right when he says Red is likely to deal with the highlights isssue. There is a lot of disappointment is that one aspect of HD cameras.

Unless we see great dynamics and really good lattitude from Red and others, film will continue to have a longer life.

Michael
 
Jannard said:
We are now getting 4k color footage from the sensor. I think people will be stunned at what we are now able to do. We are all wound up tight over this project. And sprinting to IBC. Lots of changes to the body and cages. Much better integration. Can't wait to show what we have been up to.

Jim
Click to expand...


The cork would have busted my eye
if it wasn't for my Oakleys.

...food for thoughts
 
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Robert Sanders said:
What is the dynamic range of an HVX or XL-H1? Out of curiosity for comparison sakes.
Click to expand...
I believe up to 8-stops is a safe estimation, depending on the situation.

35mm film is up to 16-stops; 16mm film is about 14.

The Viper, D20 are about 10 or 11. The Genesis is about 11-stops and Dalsa Origin about 12-stops (probably the current king). Varicam, Sony F900, F950, etc. are about 9-10 stops.

This is something of an inexact science, so disagreement is expected. You get the idea, though. Anything above 12-stops is a major win for RED, provided that the image doesn't suffer in other areas.
 
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