FS7: "DP decided he wants an F5 instead"

Ben Scott said:
In fact I think the last one wound me up because they wrote 'we only have xyz in the budget?' with the question mark at the end, as though I was supposed to jump in and answer the imaginary please do this for next to nothing question.
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To paraphrase Sheriff Brody: "You're gonna need a bigger budget."
 
It appears this is quite a sore-spot for the majority of us and is an ever growing issue. For those in the larger metro areas there's still quite a bit of opportunity but for those of us outside of those areas it compounds the issue even further.

The perceived "value" of the services we provide seems to be eroding faster than ever before. Everywhere you look there's talk about how "cheap" the gear is or how "anyone can buy 'X' camera and produce quality content". My personal favorite of late was a self-proclaimed social media guru / website designer who wasadvertising a seminar on how to "shoot your own" videos. The irony of undermining the value of a whole other industry whilst charging for your own seminar in a field you are not experienced in...
 
I saw a group of about 1,000 bloggers from all over the world hand over hundreds of pounds to have a 1hr 'how to incorporate video into your blogging' camera lesson.

Shocking.
 
The best quote I have heard on this

The best quote I have heard on this

Donny 123 said:
Totally agree.. I work only with my own camera.. (F5/CN7).. people playing games with rates are not people you want to work with anyway.. wish them luck or just dont reply.. dont waste your time.. either they pay your rate,or you dont work with A holes.. perfect.. no other "trade" puts up with this s*%t..
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Heard this from a 75 year old gaffer I have worked with when asked if he would discount his rate....." Maybe you should consider that you can't afford to do this project?" He,of course,felt he had nothing to lose.
 
I say no quitea bit, which is why I have so much time on my hands to deeply study my gear.

Seems noone has a real budget these days. IPhone cameras are making it worse.
 
I think that part of the problem is perceived value of service. I think businesses /corporations / clients have as much ability as they ever had to provide reasonable budgets (ebbs and flows in the economy are a given as they have been for decades). But because you've got the uninitiated touting how they can create great videos on their phone or those that can't seem to compare apples-to-apples (experience, quality/value of gear, etc) and are fine with the typical "kid with a DSLR" scenario and don't see the difference. But the worst, in my opinion, is the client who *does* know the difference and does see how the market can be and tries to use that to their advantage by driving down your budgets / rate simply because they feel like they can. As mentioned, they don't argue the other rates (for airtime or dropping thousands on mailers) but they will try to whittle down your rate bit by bit - sometimes by just increasing your workload without increasing the budget.


Obviously, I've had my run in with these types and have had to walk away. It's never fun or easy but at some point you have to draw the line.
 
Given that the OP was apparently speaking to someone on the Producing side, and the brush-off indicated "the DP had chosen to go a different direction" there's all sorts of possible shenanigans that could have been in play behind the scenes. The DP may have always wanted the F5 and had a line on it, and the producers got quotes on the FS7 just for leverage to bring the DP's F5 rate down.

Regardless, on any given deal, it's either worth it or not. I tend not to give rate breaks on pure rentals - but there are instances as Ben says where a prestige job is worth a cut rate. And regardless of the rate, never count on the pay until the bank confirms the client's check cleared.

This is the downside of cameras becoming super good and super cheap - tons of competition because the barrier to entering the industry is amazingly low.

Learning to say no is incredibly important. I do far less work now than I did a few years ago, and make more. Often the clients offering the least pay will expect you to work the hardest, and provide the most overtime and revision rounds.
 
Re Video,s..Its the one Eric posted.. but yes Ive seen the other one too.. they are both very good.. but its really has to give you pause that we are treated like this.. no other business would even consider what we are routinely asked.. even other freelance ones.. makes you wonder doesn't it.. Im an old fart now.. and I just dont put up with any s*%te anymore.. but I,d hate to be starting out in the current environment ..
 
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My wife and I went through exactly this process as wedding photographers. We gave our clients a great product and they were all very pleased with what we did and recommended us etc. But slowly, over a few years, there were just fewer and fewer jobs - entirely down the the increasing ubiquity of more-than-adequate compact and DSLR cameras. The crunch, for us, came with the great crash when, because of the aforementioned availability of high performance cameras in the hands of Uncle Ralph, professional photography was the first thing to get ditched from newly constrained budgets.

Luckily, for us, it was never more than a side business, but other than the really high end, wedding photographers have had to diversify in all sorts of ways (including offering video too - ha!) in order to survive. Of course, a lot of them haven't and professional photography has become a much smaller industry (not just in weddings) and a much riskier career path.

I don't actually think videography (or whatever you want to call it) will go the same way to quite such an extent. Sure, people can get hold of highly capable gear at an affordable price, but producing decent moving images is a couple of orders of magnitude harder than getting 'good enough' stills. Sure, some of the low-end work will disappear, but anyone who needs professional-looking video will, maybe after trying it on the cheap, eventually have to hire a professional at a professional rate.

And, as others have mentioned, no-one planning a wedding ever tried to chisel the florist, the caterers, the hairdressers, the printers etc - only ever the photographers.
 
Donny 123 said:
Re Video,s..Its the one Eric posted.. but yes Ive seen the other one too.. they are both very good.. but its really has to give you pause that we are treated like this.. no other business would even consider what we are routinely asked.. even other freelance ones.. makes you wonder doesn't it.. Im an old fart now.. and I just dont put up with any s*%te anymore.. but I,d hate to be starting out in the current environment ..
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You'll be treated however you accept being treated to be honest. Remember that they are always going to be paying themselves full rate and if not, there is a longer game for them that will reap the due rewards. The minute you break and do the £600 a day job for £200 you are no longer the DP or Director or whatever in their minds. You're the £200 guy. And doing £200 per day jobs, 99% of the time, only leads to more £200 per day jobs.

For me it's very important that people know that production value abc costs xyz. If you genuinely have a very low budget I'm happy to talk to you about where savings can be made that have minimal impact on production values but that's a long way off me allowing you to turn a you problem into a me problem and taking the hit for you. This stuff costs money. I've been doing this stuff for a couple of decades and I like to think I occasionally know what I'm doing. Those things both have a base value and I try to take jobs where getting me on board is more important to the gig than having a good deal on gear.
 
Tim Sewell said:
My wife and I went through exactly this process as wedding photographers. We gave our clients a great product and they were all very pleased with what we did and recommended us etc. But slowly, over a few years, there were just fewer and fewer jobs - entirely down the the increasing ubiquity of more-than-adequate compact and DSLR cameras. The crunch, for us, came with the great crash when, because of the aforementioned availability of high performance cameras in the hands of Uncle Ralph, professional photography was the first thing to get ditched from newly constrained budgets.

Luckily, for us, it was never more than a side business, but other than the really high end, wedding photographers have had to diversify in all sorts of ways (including offering video too - ha!) in order to survive. Of course, a lot of them haven't and professional photography has become a much smaller industry (not just in weddings) and a much riskier career path.

I don't actually think videography (or whatever you want to call it) will go the same way to quite such an extent. Sure, people can get hold of highly capable gear at an affordable price, but producing decent moving images is a couple of orders of magnitude harder than getting 'good enough' stills. Sure, some of the low-end work will disappear, but anyone who needs professional-looking video will, maybe after trying it on the cheap, eventually have to hire a professional at a professional rate.

And, as others have mentioned, no-one planning a wedding ever tried to chisel the florist, the caterers, the hairdressers, the printers etc - only ever the photographers.
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I've a friend who is an exceptionally talented wedding photographer. Really enthusiastic and outrageously creative. He charges a good solid amount which surprises people at first but then they see what they're getting.

At the same time I've been to a few friends' weddings where the photographer has charged a lot more and their images are so drab and formal and lacking in life and completely fail to capture the essence of the day and everything at like F16 with no pop and very flat and dull. I happened to take my A7s to a wedding and took some snaps for a laugh in terrible low light and in the end the couple used those as their main wedding pics.

It's this second type that is going to die out. My pal gets work because he makes the couple feel special and instead of a chore it becomes an experience and he makes images that make their day look amazing. And everyone who sees the images tells others.

I shot my first and only wedding for a friend as a present last year. Came out well but oh my god, never again. If it had been a paying gig I would have charged the earth to make it worth my while. I've shot harrowing documentaries that were less stressful!
 
Ben Scott said:
You'll be treated however you accept being treated to be honest.
If you genuinely have a very low budget I'm happy to talk to you about where savings can be made that have minimal impact on production values but that's a long way off me allowing you to turn a you problem into a me problem and taking the hit for you. This stuff costs money. I've been doing this stuff for a couple of decades and I like to think I occasionally know what I'm doing. Those things both have a base value and I try to take jobs where getting me on board is more important to the gig than having a good deal on gear.
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This. Exactly. Well said Ben.
 
We always lost out to the stills photographers at weddings we did. The couples had no problem paying $2500 for photos, but $1500 for a 2 camera video for the entire day was "expensive" for them.

As we all know, video is much more complex, there is a temporal continuity that we must deal with, plus getting good audio pickup.. there's an order of magnitude more equipment involved. Yet the clients don't grasp that. It's as if they look at video as ephemeral and temporary, versus prints which to them are more permanent.

I get a few wedding inquiries a year, but nearly all of them do not call back after they find out that I'm charging $1500 for 2 cameras full day coverage.

Fortunately, my musician clients see the value in my work and say they would never entrust anyone else.
 
I would still bet people who have good sales/networking/marketing/promotional skills have far fewer of these issues than people like me who are terrible at all that stuff. I think landing clients/deals is probably sort of the same in any field and the sales etc. part is big. Again, Im terrible at it but some folks know how to sell themselves and talk some serious bullshit and I think those people will always do well, both because they know WHERE to go to find the "good" clients and they have the skill to negotiate with them as well as the clients that might need some convincing to spend the extra to work with that vendor.
 
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