DoF Too Deep?

I remember on HD pulling focus with a Zeiss 70mm digiprime on a well known actor in a western, from 18 feet away at T1.4, and the guy would lean forward a bit and he'd be out, and then he'd lean back a bit and he'd be out and the director was getting annoyed at this but the guy was jerking around too fast for me to follow.
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dadoboy, allz I'm saying is if you're shooting so shallow that when a guy leans forward a bit he jumps out of focus, you need to increase your DOF, it's just physics. If a smaller sensor, which has a deeper DOF, is your solution, that's fine. Mine would be to stop down a tad until it works. A full-frame sensor with great low light capabilities and quality glass to me beats a smaller sensor any day of the week, excepting Thursday evenings between 5:30 and six. Anyone can pull focus on a Canon Powershot point-n-shoot with a tiny sensor. My wife can get our kid in the foreground on the swing AND the Sierra Nevada mountains razor sharp, handheld, while eating a popsicle and changing a diaper.
 
Buck Forester said:
dadoboy, allz I'm saying is if you're shooting so shallow that when a guy leans forward a bit he jumps out of focus, you need to increase your DOF, it's just physics. If a smaller sensor, which has a deeper DOF, is your solution, that's fine.
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That's assuming Dado is in control of what f-stop to use as a focus puller. A puller can't just close down if he wants to, it's up to the DP. Unless we're talking about just ignoring on set hierarchy. :lipsrseal

And there are sensors between full frame and 1/3 that work pretty well and are sometimes better suited for a job. 2/3, Super 16...yes, sometimes another camera besides the 5D is a better solution. When did full frame become the only option?

To more options and tools for each job.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
That's assuming Dado is in control of what f-stop to use as a focus puller. A puller can't just close down if he wants to, it's up to the DP. Unless we're talking about just ignoring on set hierarchy. :lipsrseal

And there are sensors between full frame and 1/3 that work pretty well and are sometimes better suited for a job. 2/3, Super 16...yes, sometimes another camera besides the 5D is a better solution. When did full frame become the only option?

To more options and tools for each job.
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Reality quoted in bold.
 
Buck, you know it dude. But a lot of time for whatever reason there isn't time to adjust or add lights especially top light rigs. I think he lit it for a T2 but once the smoke was added it knocked it down a whole stop. I was not DPing that feature, I was the 1st AC. The DP was a fairly well known guy actually and the budget was $5 Million but we had limited access and time at the location so we were screwed - no time to adjust lights unless you want the director and line producer screaming at you. I think we all knew what I was up against which was why I was not fired. If you are shooting WFO (wide fing open) you are often given a big break because it's often extremely difficult. The DP slaps you on the back and says "Good Luck" and you use the force.

Sh*t happens on set all the time, but that was one of the most stressful positions I've been in, not the norm.

Buck Forester said:
dadoboy, allz I'm saying is if you're shooting so shallow that when a guy leans forward a bit he jumps out of focus, you need to increase your DOF, it's just physics. If a smaller sensor, which has a deeper DOF, is your solution, that's fine. Mine would be to stop down a tad until it works. A full-frame sensor with great low light capabilities and quality glass to me beats a smaller sensor any day of the week, excepting Thursday evenings between 5:30 and six. Anyone can pull focus on a Canon Powershot point-n-shoot with a tiny sensor. My wife can get our kid in the foreground on the swing AND the Sierra Nevada mountains razor sharp, handheld, while eating a popsicle and changing a diaper.
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That's assuming Dado is in control of what f-stop to use as a focus puller. A puller can't just close down if he wants to, it's up to the DP. Unless we're talking about just ignoring on set hierarchy.
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But can you give me reason a DP says, "use f1.4 even if it's impossible to keep the talent in focus when he merely leans forward"?, minus any purposeful artsy reasons? I'm pretty sure a DP would want the proper DOF used for the scene and not choose one that doesn't physically work. As a cameraman, in my experiences, the DP checks the scene through my viewfinder first to see if it's what he/she's looking for (or tells me what he wants and trusts me and then reviews after the shot - trust but verify, ha!)

I'm not saying the 5D is the best solution (I haven't been able to order mine yet, it's been out of stock each time I put it in my cart at B&H, ugh!), I'm saying full frame to me is a no-brainer. More options. Just because it has the capabilities of shallow DOF doesn't mean you have to use it. But you can't 'get more' DOF options with a small sensor. And I'm not suggesting anyone use full-frame, I'm saying for me it's a no-brainer. If I wanted small sensors and inherent deep DOF, I'd use one of those consumer cameras. Again, that's just me. I also like pretty girls, so what do I know.
 
Please stay on track with actual experience, not conjecture or theory in a discussion that's already begging for unbiased and well-founded insight.
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Ha! I knew Kholi would pull the "snooty card" soon enough! Trust me, Kholi, we may disagree (or simply have different views/takes) but I make a big chunk of my living doing this stuff and I have nothing to prove to you, trust me. You must. Kidding, you don't have to.
 
Buck Forester said:
Ha! I knew Kholi would pull the "snooty card" soon enough! Trust me, Kholi, we may disagree (or simply have different views/takes) but I make a big chunk of my living doing this stuff and I have nothing to prove to you, trust me. You must. Kidding, you don't have to.
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You're right, experience = snooty. Staying at a certain stop is also artsy.

Thanks for making it very clear on your level of experience, Buck. I think I already knew it from your EX-1 chronicles, I guess this re-confirms it.

Again, thanks man.
 
On I got it on third take. There was some points where there was softness, but those moments were covered by the previous two. It was faster overall just to shoot WFO and have me sweat bullets than to re light and not just lighting, but power, switching out units can mean going from 60Amp to 100Amp distro. It just gets messy, and I never complain because I understand. And I gotta say, its kind of fun. :).

As for why didn't he light the whole scene for a 4? I dunno. Power, not enough time? I stick to camera when I work as an AC.
I don't think the DP knew himself that the actor was going to move around so much.

A LOT OF ACTORS ONLY GIVE THEIR "REAL" PERFORMANCE WHEN THE CAMERA IS ON THEM. They save it up, the juice hits when they hear the whir of the camera (ha ha j/k when its digital).

Strangely enough, there was a handheld scene in the same movie, where I again we were shooting WFO, with a 50mm but it was handheld and thats super hard. You would think with $5M budget everything is under control, but crazy sh*t happens on even the big budgets.
 
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Buck Forester said:
But can you give me reason a DP says, "use f1.4 even if it's impossible to keep the talent in focus when he merely leans forward"?, minus any purposeful artsy reasons? I'm pretty sure a DP would want the proper DOF used for the scene and not choose one that doesn't physically work.
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Taste, choice, they like how it looks, and perhaps it's the "proper" choice for the scene.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure best buy has 5D in stock, last time I checked they had them. All you people swearing by full frame put your money where your mouth is and pick up a camera. That will give you an excuse to shoot more and post less. ;)
 
dadoboy said:
You would think with $5M budget everything is under control, but crazy sh*t happens on even the big budgets.
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Producers wanting to cut costs and the pressure of making a twelve hour day. That's going to keep things pretty stressful and put a lot of pressure on the DP to make the day.
 
The 5d is a tool no more no less

it does some things well - low light - wide FOVs - and is very very small and light

it is also hard to focus on a tightly framed moving subject

each operator need to find the correct tools and choose when to use them

is there any more to it than that ?

HOWEVER

I woud suggest that because of the exceptionally large sensor the 5d might not be the right tool for recording actuality or working under the directorship of a director who is not fully conversant with the limitations/challenges of the operators toolkit#

I also think that is not appropriate to comment on tools one has little working or no experience of

S

(owns Ex1, 5d, D90, Sr12 and many primes including f1.2 but chooses f4 and 5.6 zooms on the 5d!)
 
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But a lot of time for whatever reason there isn't time to adjust or add lights especially top light rigs. I think he lit it for a T2 but once the smoke was added it knocked it down a whole stop. I was not DPing that feature, I was the 1st AC.
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If your iris is locked and you temporary lose a stop due to smoke, it's obviously gonna get temporarily darker... if that wasn't planned for and you were using too shallow of a DOF based on what the DP told you to use, what can you say? I guess I'm lost a bit... was it so dark on the set that a smaller sensor with increased DOF was the solution rather than simply choosing the same DOF with full frame? I shoot smoke-machine stuff quite a bit with my EX1 (which obviously isn't full-frame), but I'm glad I have that rather than an HV20 which has inherently deeper DOF.
 
This is why canon packaged the camera with the 24-105 f4.0

Versatility, and still very shallow at a 4.0

Yet everyone I spoke with DID NOT want that lens...why? I dont know. Guess they thought they needed a 1.2 or the camera would suck lol
 
dadoboy said:
Strangely enough, there was a handheld scene in the same movie, where I again we were shooting WFO, with a 50mm but it was handheld and thats super hard. You would think with $5M budget everything is under control, but crazy sh*t happens on even the big budgets.
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Man I feel your pain SO very much. One of the VERY first RED jobs I had ever worked on was an Action short. There was an all handheld one-take of this little 5 foot chic beating up these guys, going from one end of the alley to another.

We were WIDE the hell open at like a T2 on a 50mm and I had to pull with a Whip and off of the Camera Operator/DP's RED LCD while he tried to track this little chic flipping dudes over her shoulder. Sweating bullets because you KNOW you didn't hit focus perfect is an understatement.

especially when the "client" is household named talent.
 
Taste, choice, they like how it looks, and perhaps it's the "proper" choice for the scene.
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Hey, I'm not arguing against any of that for anyone. I'm just stating for myself full frame is where it's at and gives the most/best options. Your mileage varies, it's cool.

All you people swearing by full frame put your money where your mouth is and pick up a camera.
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Well, my B&H cart right now has $3,600 in it waiting for the camera and a few accessories. I buy all my stuff at B&H, I have a relationship with them. It's a non-sexual relationship. The relationship consists of me giving them tens of thousands of dollars and they go to the bank. But they've done me well over the years. Best Buy hasn't. But I make a pretty good living with full-frame still photography so I'm familiar with full-frame. And Chipotle burritos.
 
Yeah Kholi, I think you have to work with actors to know how f'ing unpredicatble they are especially when a scene is broad and requires high energy. Like I just edited my post, a lot of actors don't give you their full on performance until its Take 2.

You can direct a movie with the formality of Hitchcock, but I find that modern directors like to keep it fast and loose.
 
dadoboy said:
Yeah Kholi, I think you have to work with actors to know how f'ing unpredicatble they are especially when a scene is broad and requires high energy. Like I just edited my post, a lot of actors don't give you their full on performance until its Take 2.

You can direct a movie with the formality of Hitchcock, but I find that modern directors like to keep it fast and loose.
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How many times have you taped marks on the ground and had the director say "hit that" and not actually see it hit until the fourth take?

What about "Hey, try to keep your head still for this since we're really tight"... only to get head bobs and weaves.

LOL.

Oh, you know my other favorite AC Scenario? The shoot day that's moving SO fast that people start growling at you when you're trying to set your marks.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't as an AC, and if ANYTHING goes wrong it's all your fault.
 
Buck

Im a stills photo as my lead proffession too - my DOF obsession led to purchaisng a 645 hassy digiback to keep it razor thin even at f11

Really filiming moving subjects is so so different

S
 
A Point and Shoot has no relevance to the differences in pulling focus at Academy FOV and Vistavision/Full Frame FOV.
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Ahhh... you miss the forest for the trees. Or is it the trees for the forest? With full-frame you can zoom in on a pine needle in the forest and get just the tip in focus. And everything in between, or everything if you want. With a point-n-shoot you can't. It's the concept, dude. But you knew that.
 
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