DoF Too Deep?

Buck, really nice photography work and I'm not questioning your credentials. This thread has kind of gone many places tonight. And I was referring to some of the louder voices earlier in this thread that say the 5D is perfect for every application and if you don't use it then you're wrong. It's not a perfect tool, it's just another tool. That's all I've been saying all along.

I don't come from the photography side, I cut my teeth doing documentary a few years ago and just finished gradschool for film. There is an obvious clash between the 35mm still photo world and motion picture 35mm, especially since the markets are starting to converge. I can see the 5D working fantastic for your wilderness work. I can see it working not so well for my fiction filmmaking, that's just preference and the difference in work that we both produce.

My website ==> http://www.isaacbrody.com

:beer:
 
Isaac, no worries, I just was getting the impression that you and a couple others didn't think I knew a camera from a yo-yo, ha! My name and my website and my stuff and my hometown has always been in my profile. And admittedly you were taking a clear position on the issue, which is fine. I came in late and must've missed the "the Canon 5D Mark II is the ONLY camera that should be manufactured and used in production" :^D I just remember forever people wanting full-frame sensors... isn't that the allure of all these adapters, to look more 35mm and 'film-like'? I never once have read people saying, "GIVE ME A SMALLER SENSOR, OR GIVE ME DEATH!" Fiction filmaking has historically used 35mm for big budget stuff (I know still and 'movie' 35mm aren't exactly the same), so one would think it would be great for fiction too. Aren't we all trying to make our stuff at least "look" big budget and get some air time and some ka-ching? I agree the Mark II isn't perfect (it's got some major limitations, I think that's universally understood), and I've been saying all along that as a "tool", the full frame option is best for 'me'. I do have another camera though, I love my EX1 and won't be giving it up by any means.

You have some good stuff on your website, best of luck to you!
 
Buck Forester said:
I just remember forever people wanting full-frame sensors... isn't that the allure of all these adapters, to look more 35mm and 'film-like'? I never once have read people saying, "GIVE ME A SMALLER SENSOR, OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
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Well lots of kids want an EVO or another twitchy car - when you get to drive one to work every day and do things you dont dream of - like sit in traffic jams the story changes somewhat

The 5d has handed a tool that is harder to focus than a $100k arri to the masses

There is a reason that a $100k arri is usually handled by three or four people - because its tough

Converse to the whole argument - I find focussing the EX1 near impossible because I cant actually tell which bit of small sensor mudge is actually supposed to be sharp

S
 
Kholi said:
... you don't see me battling Pepster's posts on the RED when he has NO idea what the hell he's talking about

Lullz.
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Hey Kholi, I resemble that remark ! (chuckle). You seem to have taken offence about my remarks re the limitations of the RED R1, ho hum...

I have noticed you are bashing the 5D2 and praising the GH1 in many of your posts - I wonder why ? Do you work for Panasonic ? Maybey you work for Red ? Maybey you have "NO idea what the hell he's talking about" ? (maybey you do - it is a bit hard to tell with your numerous 5D2 bashing posts).

Take a chill pill. You could ponder as to why people insist on wanting to shoot @ 24P - as I can see flicker @ 24P. All blu-ray players in the world can play 30fps, and all new digital cinemas should also play 30fps.

As for the RED R1 - it seems like a fine camera, higher resolution than the 5D2 (I would expect that with R1's RAW output), and able to shoot @ 120fps for slow mo. But the R1 has many other limitations, as I listed on the other thread.

My challenge to you, are you able to post an example of where the RED R1 is performing well in low light ?
 
Hey morgan... good news for me, B&H said they got another batch of Mark II's in and will be shipping mine asap, woo hoo! As for follow focus, I saw your Vimeo clip of following the woman and yes, at such tight framing and shallow DOF and following a woman walking towards you and away from you, that's very tough! Excellent job, I'm not even sure how you did it so smoothly, other than great anticipation and knowing your lens. I won't be doing that kind of shooting though. Most of my stuff will be wide and deep and aliasing is more of a concern for me than focusing. But I will be getting footage of my two little boys but I know I won't be able to follow focus with my 85mm 1.8 lens when I'm doing close-ups. But I can't do that with my EX1 full open close-up either. I agree about focusing with the EX1... bold blue peaking is my friend, ha!
 
Isaac, I work for a production company (that I'm a part owner of) that owns a 5D. I'm considering buying a 5D or GH1 for myself personally. And I'm not saying every camera is perfect for every situation. But that's great to have choices. Not everybody has a Red lying around or half a dozen other options. I just shot a show with an FX1 and V1 on HDV because it was easier. But to imply "it can't be done," is silly. And to ignore that in fact you can control DOF on the 5D by stopping down your lens and/or choosing a wider lens and then create a hollow argument around OOF highlights as the reason why is even more silly. That's why I posted my video. Because there's no DOF and it's handheld.

Kholi you're such a fact man. Y'know I do actually know that 35mm adapters could shoot with PL glass. But you should also know that most people - yes practically everyone - was shooting with manual Nikons and Canon primes because of cost. And this means that 9 times out of 10 they were in fact shooting FF. And unlike with the 5D usually were forced in many situations to shoot as wide open as possible and still pull focus. And when I first bought my crappy letus (the original) you'd have to fight with camera guys who thought the whole concept was crazy. Because it added so much weight, made the camera so much slower & in the end the look wasn't worth it. Plenty of them said you'll never be able to pull focus or the still lenses breath to much. But the world wasn't defined by the people who said you can't do it and I think the myriad of successful film adapter companies prove people found ways to make it work.

So many people have already shot FF at F1.4 and pulled focus or found ways to work the shot so that they could make it work. It has already been done. Unless Kholi you'd like to try and tell me that people weren't shooting film adapters with Nikon and Canon manual lenses?

The 5D has it's issues but the image quality has made many people jump and and try to make it work. I feel like an apple commercial - there's an app for that. Well whatever the shortcoming - there's a workaround for that. Because the rest of the video world (DVInfo) has been all over this camera since December there are now products from many companies to deal with rigs, the LCD, monitoring, audio, etc. And the camera has been almost universally out of stock at B&H since December.

What, if any camera, I buy for myself we'll see. I just prefer not to steal the business' camera to use for my own stuff. I can and I have, but I'd like to have my own. Price is always a factor.

But getting back to the point. The ridiculous notion that a shortcoming of the 5D is the FF sensor because it make focusing impossible isn't wrong - it's almost a lie. The 5D gives you choices to shoot how you want to. And if fact it gives you more choices over S35 because it's faster and you're able to have super shallow DOF if you need it even with a fast 50mm. It's your creative choice how to use the tool. If you need your focus to be on the mark give yourself some more room and stop down the lens and light your scene to the ISO you want to shoot at. And stabilization is simply a shoulder mount (with a 50mm lens or wider) for very useable handheld. It really does work. That's why there's so much video out there proving that it does.
 
Focusing full frame on a 35mm adapter is not the same. There are differences between that and the mkii. Ones that a ritual 35mm adapter user that claimed to use full frame all the time would immediately see.

Nobody used the words impossible or cAn't. Difficult, tough, not as easy. Were talking subject tracking. Not a 25mm handheld shot of random people. Morgan Moore, am actual 5D owner, shows this.

Just stopping the lens down a tad is innacurate. And misleading. Again, As stated in my post, to get the same effect as an F4 @ 80mm you'll be somewhere around F11 if you're lucky.

The experience and result of shooting on a wider lens or tighter lens is nor the same. This a conscious choice, only opinion can make it hollow but it's details like that which have impact on a final image. The concept is truly no different than choosing glass fir certain characteristics or using anamorphic lenses instead of just cropping.

Unfortunately you've managed to twist the words of several here yet again. But hopefully that cleated it up.
 
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Nobody used the words impossible or cAn't. Difficult, tough, not as easy.
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It ain't easy to master a Steadicam. It ain't easy learning full manual controls on a camera. It ain't easy mastering lighting and audio. It ain't easy to follow focus full-frame using a shallow DOF. They all add production value that sets your flick above Joe Schmoe's. Morgan's skill brings a "wow factor" that makes it stand out. A worthy endeavor in my book. I guess he could've waited for the new line of Canon cropped APS-C dslr sensors to make it easier for himself to do the same shot, albeit less impressive.

P.S. I want those super seeds. Can they be smoked? :Þ
 
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Nathan Troutman said:
.. And to ignore that in fact you can control DOF on the 5D by stopping down your lens .. a hollow argument .

The ridiculous notion that a shortcoming of the 5D is the FF sensor because it make focusing impossible isn't wrong - it's almost a lie. ..That's why there's so much video out there proving that it does.
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Nath - I just dont think you are correct

check out this little test www.sammorganmoore.com/smmcom/format_test/index.html and the image above (the idea is that the nail is sharp)

Stopping down does not increase DOF in the same way that a smaller sensor does

2.8 with Red size is about f8 at FF size

Stopping down a few clicks with the smaller sensor yeilds an 'impossible result' if you have a FF

What videos were you talking about ??

I think the thing about this camera is that it appears to offer cheap one man cinema - the reality is somewhat different - bling it out and use a team to operate it in a controlled environment and it is as usable as any other camera..

Brad I dont think my shots are that great - they are obviously boring - they just seem to me to be the sort of simple things I could be asked to do on a shoot which is why I am practicing to understand what I can (and cannot) do with this camera - the kind of things my VJ BBC mates do all day long with thier EX1s or whatever they use - I think as a stills man I have a tendency to frame tight which IMO is the correct way to frame

SMM
 
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Kholi said:
Just stopping the lens down a tad is innacurate. And misleading. Again, As stated in my post, to get the same effect as an F4 @ 80mm you'll be somewhere around F11 if you're lucky.
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Which is why I guess photographers who have been shooting FF for forever are scrambling to buy slower primes and zooms so they can get the right "Kohli look" instead of stopping down on their faster primes or zooms. Don't shoot F4 on your Canon L zoom if it's an F2.8 lens. No Kholi says you need to buy a F4 lens so you can shoot wide open for the "Kholi look." Again Kholi you have your facts straight just not the reasoning. It does seem that most people try to get the better faster lenses BECAUSE they can always stop down and you can't stop up on a lens that doesn't go any faster.

So now the imaging circle created by the same Nikon Prime is different on a film adapter than on a FF camera? Apparently that Nikon lens will only image FF on the 5D but not on a 35mm adapter - again according to Kholi.

Nobody said it was easy, but my point is people have been pulling focus on film adapters at F1.4 and doing it. Nobody necessarily always wanted to shoot F1.4 but many times you just had to. Now at least you have the choice to shoot more closed down with the 5D.

I look at the 5D as a film adapter that is lighter, simpler, and faster which opens up the full range of lens options and F-stops that most real DPs have on real sets because they have the equipment to get what they need to shoot at what they want. And in fact Kholi a dolly-move pulling focus is quite difficult on an APS-C sized chip as well. It's not like it suddenly becomes super easy to do.
 
morgan_moore said:
Nath - I just dont think you are correct
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You're comparing a 35mm lens to a 50mm lens?

If this line of reasoning is in fact true wouldn't we then make the same case that all of these VDSLRs have too big of sensor chips because it's so much easier to focus with an EX1 compared to an APS-C sized sensor?

If you've worked with a film adapter and manual Nikon lenses you already have a lot of experience working with difficult focus pulling situations. There's no reason to try and make the 5D sound like some new disaster when film adapters have provided an even more difficult training ground because you had times you simply could not shoot F4 and instead had to shoot F1.4.
 
Stopping down a few clicks with the smaller sensor yeilds an 'impossible result'
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Stopping down with small sensors murders the image. When I used to shoot with my Canon 20D (not full-frame), anything beyond f11-16 was horrible, while f22 with my 5D was acceptable, way better than f11 on my 20D. Still not ideal though. But obviosly stopping down increases DOF. If you follow-focused that woman in your clip at f16 you'd have no problem at all, it's just a matter of following her with your camera, not even having to focus. Then it's just a matter of how shallow you want to go. If you went 1.2 zoomed on her face as she walked I don't think you could've gotten it in one take, certainly not from a static perspective, unless it was all pre-planned to a 't'.

Let the record show that this discussion put me over the 500 post mark. Thank you very much, it's been a great ride so far. Thanks a lot. This means a lot to me. Thanks again and you may all be seated. Please, please, take your seats. Carry on.
 
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Please stop using still photography as an arguement. It's invalid in
moving images that require constant focus tracking.

Leave your emotions at the door and bring fact to the table.

Otherwise your long winded posts are useless.

Morgan, thanks for adding perspective on a visual level to this thread.
 
Nathan Troutman said:
You're comparing a 35mm lens to a 50mm lens?

If this line of reasoning is in fact true wouldn't we then make the same case that all of these VDSLRs have too big of sensor chips because it's so much easier to focus with an EX1 compared to an APS-C sized sensor?

If you've worked with a film adapter and manual Nikon lenses you already have a lot of experience working with difficult focus pulling situations. There's no reason to try and make the 5D sound like some new disaster when film adapters have provided an even more difficult training ground because you had times you simply could not shoot F4 and instead had to shoot F1.4.
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35mm is approx the same FOV as a 50mm on the different formats - they are lenses I own too !

I have a letus for my EX1 and did indeed give up with it as a disaster for runNgun informal environments (mainly due to the form factor)

The correct use of an adapter is in a planned cinematic environment where 35Film, the 5d and Adapters are useable on rails with a whip and a puller and decent monitor

It is my opinion that using a minimally rigged 5d in an informal yet professional environment is highly challenging - not impossible - challenging :)

Links??

S
 
Buck Forester said:
Stopping down with small If you follow-focused that woman in your clip at f16 you'd have no problem at all, it's just a matter of following her with your camera, not even having to focus. .
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The shot is at 5.6 with this old 100-300 nikkor zoom I picked up having rejected my three other 80-200s for physical reasons (throw and rough focussing) - It hurt me to buy a 5.6 lens because Im Mr Wide Prime Zooms Are For Pansies Man - but it is the best solution I can find - im thinking of creating an uber lens by getting one of my 80-200s modded for smooth focus and somehow incorporating a focus puller onto it - the thing about the 100-300 is that it doesnt tripod mount which creates other flex issues (and by the way thats not a cheapo tripod - miller arrow head costs nearly 5d money - food for thought)

That is a track towards me of about 20 feet with a 180mm lens ending about 8 feet from the camera - get out your stills cameras and do a couple of tests - you would have to pull with the EX1 too Im sure

S
 
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Please stop using still photography as hit arguement. It's invalid in
oving images that require constant focus tracking.
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Ahhh, you're right. DOF concepts only apply to still photography, which has nothing in common whatsoever with moving images, even though we're talking about a 35mm 'still' camera with 35mm lenses. Yer right, Kholi, my bad. How in the world has Hollywood pulled off so many movies for so many years without smaller sensors and flim stock? Full frame is just too difficult to be practical.

Kholi, I'm surprised you're not familiar with the advice most cinematographers give... master still photography before you make movies because the concepts and physics are the same.

Leave your emotions at the door and bring fact to the table.
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I'm sorry, I just can't stop crying. This is a very emotional time for me and my family. :Þ

Kholi, people are follow focusing with the Mark II, trust me. Morgan showed you it can be done even with shallow DOF. If you can't handle it, I can see your problems with it. Keep practicing. If you want. It's up to you.
 
That is a track towards me of about 20 feet with a 180mm lens ending about 8 feet from the camera - get out your stills cameras and do a couple of tests
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180mm? That's a long lens. Wouldn't getting a little closer and using a 24mm make it easier to follow focus her? Different wider look, but mucho easier-o.

Also, I run and gun with my EX1 nearly every day. And when I mean run, I mean literally. I find the form factor of the EX1 fine to work with, especially getting three 1/2" chips in that little puppy. The other cameras in that range are HUGE! The EX1 is a godsend for guys like me. The MKII will be another outstanding tool in the kit for my style.
 
morgan_moore said:
35mm is approx the same FOV as a 50mm on the different formats - they are lenses I own too !
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I get why you did it for FOV but when comparing DOF you need to compare the same lens. In your example you're measuring the difference in DOF between the two sizes of chips PLUS the difference in DOF between a 35mm lens and a 50mm lens.

Thanks for doing the test and if you could do the same thing with both cameras shooting the 50mm that would be great.
 
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