ALL: Does this look like an Autofocus Bug to You?? -- Video Clip

hollyburgh said:
Has anyone heard any news yet on the fix for any of the 130/160 and 250 Auto Focus issues? Jan, please help us... I am so close to buying one of these until discovering the AF problems.
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Just be glad you didn't buy it already; like myself and many others.
 
So sorry to hear that... big bummer. I had such high hopes. I hope for your sake and others there is a fix coming our way soon.
 
abeas said:
Just be glad you didn't buy it already; like myself and many others.
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Not certain what your point is by this comment. There are posts here and elsewhere that demonstrate that Panasonic understands the issue, and is examining it.

There also was a rebate following the release of the HVX200 in the form of a bundled p2 card and roughly along the same time frame as the 250.

Rather than jumping to conclusions, I'd rather wait for the results of the company's examination of AF with the 250.

In the meantime, the cam continues to make money for us and I would venture others.
 
David Saraceno said:
Not certain what your point is by this comment.
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Not sure what the confusion is with my statement. To clarify, my point is that it's disappointing not having a reliable auto-focus. I have been using the camera since the first week it came out. I have made some money using it, as have others. I use manual focus I'd say 70% of the time. The times I use auto-focus, it is disappointing it gets thrown off so easily, and during that 30% of the time, I am disgusted that a $4600 camera can not perform that task. It makes me wish I had waited to see what Sony or Canon may put out this year, or perhaps I even should have not sold my HMC150, even though it is somewhat outdated.
I enjoy the AC160 as much as anyone else, but it is a shame that something like auto-focus does not seem to work as it should.
 
I had the camera when it first came out too, and had to return it. Great great camera, but I won't buy it if they do not fix the autofocus issue.
I wish they would keep us more up to date on if there is a chance for a fix. I have to make some buying decisions soon.
I am glad that others are talking about this issue and showing video results. I don't feel this is bashing, we want this to be a great camera, that is why I am waiting.

For those that did not see them, here are some videos of a comparison between the HMC150 and Ac130
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQsC_AAaf8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70crNGs30Jg[/URL]
 
Deer film, can you verify something for me? It's hard to tell with the YouTube video... but it seems to me that in your video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQsC_AAaf8), at the point where you have facial closeups and the tree in the background (around 3:35), the depth of field of the AC130 is a lot shallower than the HMC. Specifically, the tree is clearly more out of focus than in the HMC shots.

Is this fairly consistent (the depth of field difference between the cameras)? Was there anything going on in the settings that would cause this? Or could the 130 have been kicking into macro mode for those shots? How close was your face to the camera?

Just curious...

P.S., what kind of wacky TIE fighter was that? Darth's had one compartment between the wings, no? That's weird!
 
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I am at the point to by this camera also, i even ordered Barry's book from USA , since European version do not include coupon for the book.
But I’m discovering more and more severe problems , now even in manual focus and OIS off. Take a look: http://vimeo.com/34816634
I am waiting for news from the manufacturer regarding this issue, I even agreed to tolerate manual focus , but it won’t work as it should even in manual, than it is a big problem and like all of us I do not need a product with problems.
 
That's been discussed repeatedly. It's not a bug, it's that you can't hold extreme macro focus throughout the entire zoom range, it's not designed to do that.
 
Barry,

I can't seem to hold focus on mine, when there is lights in front of the camera or when something that is white in front of the camera. Also, how about that clip that is posted below. My camera seems to do this quite often. I can't afford that in certain circumstances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L3iWMjHEYMI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5qaRwwD6lkg#!

http://vimeo.com/33122196

These three instances can't be macro focus?

Unfortunately, I am in the process of returning my Ac160 and kind of getting the run around with Panasonic. The above demonstration are kind of what i shoot the most. If I was doing more shots that are set up, I would have purchased the Af100. I use my Dslr for more artistic shots and the AC160 as more of a run and gun auto type setup.

I have been shooting everything manually on my Ac160, because I can't trust the auto focus. I did not have this issue on my other camera's. Hope Panny deals with me as a long term customer i.e. takes care of me. This is my first Panny and was switching over from Sony. Just because this camera isn't working out for me, another Panny might. I don't want to go away with a bad taste. I don't think I am being unrealistic with the expectations of this camera. I did not feel this way when shooting manually of a Hmc150.
 
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Hi ullanta. First about the Star Wars Tie fighter, it was something I bought about 15 years ago. I think it is the one for Darth Vader.
Back to the video you asked about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQsC_AAaf8 I had both cameras at the same focal length. I think my face was about 2 to 3 feet in front of the camera. I can't give you a good answer if the macro mode kicked in or why the depth of field is different.
Maybe someone else here can do some tests and be better to answer that.
I had to return my camera, and I am waiting for them to fix the autofocus issue before I buy it again. I wish I could have done more tests with face detection. I want to know what happens when you have 2 faces at different lengths. What happens when a face turns away and you can't see the eyes. And what would happen if you use face detection on animals.

The autofocus has major problems though for "my" needs. It just seems to hunt for where it is supposed to focus, and sometimes goes in and out, or take a long time to focus in. If you don't use autofocus, then this is the camera for you. But I really depend on it and want it as a feature. My Canon Vixia and HMC150 offer me this.

In this video of just the ac130, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70crNGs30Jg&feature=relmfu at the 45 second mark, you can see on the side how close the camera are to the subject.
In my testing, I did not have the camera any farther away.


Thank, and have a good day.
 
The AC160/130 will have greater depth of field at any given point along the zoom, although it is much more visible to the naked eye in the longer zoom lengths. It has to do with the distance of the lens elements which is greater on the longer zooms.

This is also probably part of the problem with the auto-focus issues, as it might be a safe guess that the same auto-focus mechanism and measurements were in use from the HMC150 even though the lens elements have changed.

We've already been told that the problem with the time/date stamping being in the wrong place was due to a failure to update the code from one camera to the next to compensate for the changes in the screen layout, so I don't think it's farfetched to guess that this same sort of problem is at work in the auto-focus problems as well. Really, it's not uncommon to reuse code (or parts) whenever possible, but it seems that there was a bit more testing that needed to be done before these products hit the street.



ullanta said:
Deer film, can you verify something for me? It's hard to tell with the YouTube video... but it seems to me that in your video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvQsC_AAaf8), at the point where you have facial closeups and the tree in the background (around 3:35), the depth of field of the AC130 is a lot shallower than the HMC. Specifically, the tree is clearly more out of focus than in the HMC shots.

Is this fairly consistent (the depth of field difference between the cameras)? Was there anything going on in the settings that would cause this? Or could the 130 have been kicking into macro mode for those shots? How close was your face to the camera?

Just curious...

P.S., what kind of wacky TIE fighter was that? Darth's had one compartment between the wings, no? That's weird!
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It's a Tie Bomber

Also i don't think I've ever had a camera that wouldn't hunt occasionally. I'm considering a AC130 in the near future and i think it would be helpful to get an idea of how often the problems occur and more importantly when they do not occur. So far everything I've seen has been in a low light, low contrast situation and thats sort of a recipe for focus issues is it not?

My issue with my old HMC150 was that when it would miss the focus (focus on background not the people in front) the lcd screen resolution was too low to tell.
 
I found this discussion while Googling for some details about the AC160 (Looking for 5 exact cameras for my new studio).

This AutoFocus issue is too disturbing so I guess I will go for the Sony instead...
It's a shame, this camera seem to be better than the NX5 but the AF is too crucial for my work :-(

Does any one know if this is a hardware or software fault?
Thanks.
 
Dstar said:
These three instances can't be macro focus?
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Those have nothing to do with the macro focus thing. What PuzzON describes in his video is the already-discussed, not-a-problem macro thing. You're describing a totally different issue, the hunting autofocus.

Panasonic has said they're researching the hunting autofocus and will report back when they have some answers for us.
 
scapsinger said:
The AC160/130 will have greater depth of field at any given point along the zoom
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As compared to an HMC150? No, they'd be identical. At any zoom position from 3.9mm to 51mm, an HMC150 and an AC160/130 would deliver identical DOF. The AC will only get shallower DOF if you zoom in further than the HMC150 can go.

This is also probably part of the problem with the auto-focus issues, as it might be a safe guess that the same auto-focus mechanism and measurements were in use from the HMC150 even though the lens elements have changed.
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Well, that's the thing though -- the lens has changed a lot. The glass in the AC cameras is huge. Way bigger than the HMC150. Shuffling that much glass around is probably contributing to it being slower to lock on and hunting more.
 
john deaver said:
Also i don't think I've ever had a camera that wouldn't hunt occasionally. I'm considering a AC130 in the near future and i think it would be helpful to get an idea of how often the problems occur and more importantly when they do not occur. So far everything I've seen has been in a low light, low contrast situation and thats sort of a recipe for focus issues is it not?
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You are correct that occasional hunting happens in pretty much all AF systems, and is the primary reason why pros eschew autofocus whenever possible. The issue with the AC130/AC160 and HPX250 appears to be that the focus hunts during low light/low contrast situations quite a bit more than the HMC150 ever did. In broad daylight with the lens stopped down just a little, the AC and HPX250 perform great with autofocus, certainly on par with other cameras. But when the iris is totally wide open, they hunt more and respond more slowly. I did a side-by-side and in wide-open scenarios where the AC160 was hunting, the HMC150 could lock on. I think that's what's given rise to the complaints. You get a much longer zoom, but the tradeoff is that the autofocus hunts more. In low contrast low light scenarios it hunts to a degree that many will find unacceptable. Of course, I would point out (as you did) that that's pretty much a recipe for having problems with focus, but the counter argument is that other cameras do handle that same scenario better (such as the HMC150). And the counter argument to that is, the HMC150's lens stops at 51mm, the new cameras go to 86mm...

In the end, yes, it's clear that the autofocus on the new cameras isn't as snappy and precise as the older cameras, and it's to the point where I would say that if someone's work absolutely requires autofocus (like Eran Vered said) then I wouldn't recommend one of these new cameras at this time, pending hearing the results of Panasonic's evaluation of the situation.

For occasional autofocus, for push-auto, for scenarios where autofocus is acknowledged to work well (adequate contrast and adequate lighting levels) they're totally fine and the other superb features of the cameras make them well worth it. But if you're relying on brilliant autofocus performance in sub-par shooting situations, these aren't the cameras for that.

As to the videos that Dstar pointed to -- while I admit that the autofocus ruined those shots, might I point out that autofocus was also the wrong choice for some of those? Why would you use autofocus on a wide static shot? That's exactly the kind of scenario that autofocus is not only not beneficial, but would run the risk of ruining the shot. In the first shot with the kids and the lights, zoom in - set manual focus - zoom back out, and leave the focus alone for the entire performance. In the second video, the police video, again the camera was stationary and for most of that scenario the action was stationary... I dunno, maybe the little bit of additional distance when the folks walked to the unveiling was enough distance to call for a focus change, so maybe I'd say that autofocus might have been desirable in that scene (well, a properly-working autofocus, that is!) but if I was an events shooter hired to shoot that, I wouldn't have been using auto, I'd have been in manual on the podium, and would have panned over and grabbed a manual focus and stayed there. On the third video, man, I don't know what to say on that, I've forwarded that video on to Panasonic to make sure they see it.

My issue with my old HMC150 was that when it would miss the focus (focus on background not the people in front) the lcd screen resolution was too low to tell.
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That won't be a problem with the new cameras. The LCDs are dramatically sharper and the peaking is superb, you can totally judge good focus off of the LCD alone.
 
Yes, Thanks Barry
I unfortunately have to shoot some productions in not the best of lighting condition from a crane. So, I do rely on the auto focus a lot. If it would have been all lock down tripod shots which I have done lately, I would not have a issue with working around this and manually focusing. I was not looking for perfect auto focus, but definitely usable in my situation. If my camera would have worked like other models in auto mode that I have owned, I would be completely satisfied!

I sure hope that Panny can adjust this, because other then this, I love this camera.
 
Had a chat with a Panasonic tech. support rep. in Panasonic official website, his answer to the AC130 focus problems was:

Agent Vern W. says: It's not really a problem. It just works slightly differently.


Due to this answer, I'll go for the NX5...
 
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