Does it ever end? Cable ties edition.

O

OldCorpse

Rockin the Boat
I'm just trying to assemble a minimalistic audio package so I can shoot some upcoming shorts and things, and the expenses are literally not coming to an end. I've already spent thousands and no end in sight. And I'm only looking for the bare minimum! What am I doing wrong and how are you guys doing it? I must be a complete idiot. OK, so I spent close to $300 on cables of various kinds, and because I didn't want problems, I bought top of the line Canare gear which seems the minimum acceptable (there are other much more expensive brands!). I already asked about some kind of bag/container to organize them, and the consensus seems to be "you don't need one". Fine. But then a new problem occurred - I was testing out my mics and new cables, and realized with horror, that I'll need... cable ties! I can't just wrap them around my elbow and throw them into a bag, it would result in a tangled mess of a snakepit. Plus, you need to bunch them up and hang them sometimes from a bag or belt or whatever, so you'll need some kind of hanger thingies. In any case, I bought:

1) Rip-Tie 1 x 6" Heavy-duty CableWrap (10 Pack)

2) Rip-Tie 1 x 9" Heavy-duty CableWrap (10 Pack)

3) Rip-Tie Lite 1/2 x 6" Light-duty Strap (Pack of 10) (Rainbow)

4) 3 packets of these (for a total of 6): Rip-Tie Carabiner Style CableCarrier 1 x 6" - for Carrying Extra Cables (Matte Black, Pack of 2)

5) BongoTies Standard 5" Elastic Cable Ties (10 Pack) - Black

6) Dotz Reusable Hook & Loop Cord Straps (6 Pack)

7) Tether Tools JerkStopper In-Line Cable Management System (4 Pack)

The bill came to $88.65 and free shipping from B&H. My wife raised an eyebrow when she heard about the $300 for cables and connectors, but she thinks I lost my mind on $88 for cable ties. I try to explain that these are essential. She sees no end to these expenses, and I must admit, I'm worried. Maybe spending over $80 on cable ties is madness, but seriously, how am I supposed to just throw cables into a big bag willy nilly, that's strikes me as damaging to cables, and plus if you've ever had a drawer full of cables all tangled one into the other, it takes ages to get the right one freed from the mess. I seriously thought it's essential. But $88?

I don't know. I need a reality check from the pros here. Am I insane? How do YOU solve the cable tie problem? And is there any moment at which I can say: "OK, my *minimal* audio package is assembled, I don't need to spend any more money!" or is there never such moment and I'll spend until I'm bankrupt? Help please!
 
If I was to EVER catch anyone working for me winding cables around their elbow they would NOT get another days work from me......... NO EXCEPTION !!!!
Youtube is full of 'how to wind cables correctly'
Years ago we used a shoe lace to tie cables in there bundles.... at the male XLR end tie a cord / shoe lace so when the cable is wound up the cord is looped around the loop bundle a couple of times and then tied in a reef knot.
These days hook & loop ties are the way to go, the price your quoting for ties is a bit on the high side. Try here http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=105&cp_id=10520&cs_id=1052003&p_id=5809&seq=1&format=2

To reduce cable costs make your own or at this price you won't DIY again. http://www.monoprice.com/Search/Index?keyword=microphone+cable
 
Everyone has their own definition of how much gear they need, whether the goal is to have an acceptable bare minimum or to be comfortable in a variety of situations.

Because of the nature of most of my shoots, my standard is to only buy audio equipment that I can handle alone. I think if you can't even use the equipment properly you shouldn't buy it. For example, I would never buy a Sound Devices 664 - trying to handle one while doing other things would be destructive. Even needing a piece of gear like that probably means a larger shoot, which at this point for me, the only option is to hire a dedicated professional.

As far as the cable tie price, a cable is incomplete without the tie, so it's not $88 for cable ties, it's $388 for a cable/tie system! Also, your wife questions the $88 but not the thousands spent beforehand?
 
OldCorpse said:
I can't just wrap them around my elbow and throw them into a bag...
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Holy cats! You really need to learn how to coil a cable. In the mean time, don't you ever touch a cable of mine. Now get your tail to YouTube and figure out how to properly coil a cable! Sheesh. You're giving soundies a bad name.

OldCorpse said:
My wife raised an eyebrow when she heard about the $300 for cables and connectors, but she thinks I lost my mind on $88 for cable ties.
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Not without reason. I've been using AT8314 cables for years. Nice cables, coil nice, never a problem. And I've been able to find all but one or two used. I don't think I've ever paid more than $20 USD for a cable of any length. And all you need to hold 'em are some Red Whips.

But heck, it's your money. If you want to spend that much for cables and stuff, have at it. Just as long as you understand that expensive cables don't sound any better.
 
Oh, I do know you have to coil cables correctly, that's why I said "I *can't* wrap them around my elbow" - in the long run, you stress damage the cable if you don't cable correctly. And I know "cables don't sound better" - I bought the Canares for the following reasons: hopefully decently shielded, good connectors, good soldering, flexible in all temperatures, durable. Thank you for the Red Whips and other tie tips! Also, does anyone here need cable labels? I see B&H sells them, but since I'm not doing music recording studio work, or mass cables going into tons of servers or boxes, I don't see a need for labels... am I wrong?
 
I buy standard male/female Velcro by the box.. stick it together at appropriate lengths and secure it to cables with a small nylon tie strap (requires punching a small hole though the Velcro). Not as easy as a pre-made ties, but it does the job.
PS-- I wince at 'over-the-shoulder' cable winding.
 
Over under those cables.

You can make hundreds of cable ties with $12 worth of cord. Every truck I have worked on over the last 30 years has used this on every stinger and cable.

Buy yourself a small roll of #4 Trick Line for $25 and it should last a very very long time.
 
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Terry_Lasater said:
There is also this option.
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Second that!

Tie line is the cheapest, easiest solution. It's easy to affix to the cable in a way that stays on:

Cut an 8"-10" length of tie line (longer if you're tying a heavier cable bundle, such as a snake).
Fold it in half and place the cable across it.
Pull the two ends through the folded end, around the cable.

Get a large spool and you're set for a long, long time.
 
Terry_Lasater said:
No need for zip ties and punching holes with these.
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That's what I use. The other things I always buy when I see them are the little girl hair ties that look like two marbles connected with a figure eight elastic. THey are great for securing cables to things like mic stands and boom poles. You can use them for short cables but they are a bit weak for those 50' coils.

I was also going to jump on the elbow coil.
Apart from "stress" if you don't under and over your mic cables will get "trained" to coil and they will never lie flat and that will be a major PITA that is only cured by tossing them and getting new ones.

A good production package is going to run $20,000 to $50,000. So even bare bones if that is the direction you are aiming it gets $$$$$

You can spend $20 on a cable from Guitar Center and if you treat it decently it will probably last a bunch of years with out problems. Reasons to go higher end have to do with the connectors, and general quality of build, and either thiner and/or softer more flexible cable. Not huge deals but if your working with them every day it's nice.

My general recommendation to folks is to start out light. You might hate doing sound, do it some with out a lot of $$$ tied up in it. If you like it then go for it.

"expendables" is a place you can skimp with relative impunity. Boxes (pre amps, mixers etc.) is an area that is more problematic ti skimp on. So I would always recommend a quality mic pre as a pretty early purchase once you are serious.

Mics can run the tab up fast but if you don't need "Brand X" because paying customers are going to demand it (no budget films don't get to insist you spend money) then you can buy OK cheaper models because once you upgrade they will still be usable as backups and mics you can put in harms way with out breaking out in a sweat. Mics like the NTG2 and that CAD cardioid I've mentioned before fall into that category.

You will need a bag. Not sure who said you wouldn't but... You will need one.

If you have a good mic pre you can get by with a cheaper recorder. The down side is usually usability. Little buttons mounted on the top rather than the side is a major PITA on handhelds, but they will work. And if you are going in line or better digital they are basically "bit buckets". And again when you upgrade you will still be able to use them as backups.

That is the philosophy I developed after spending way too much on things I ended up sticking on a shelf or giving away. If you cut a corner make sure it's either something you will be replacing anyway at some point, or it's something that will have a second life as a backup, or ?
 
FWIW, I just spent another $354 at B&H. This time: bag for the DR-60D, 2 60D-approved SD cards, case for SD cards, Rycote Softie Lyre Mount Pistol Grip and more Dotz Hook & Loop Cord Straps. On the straps - I received all the ties and straps from B&H on my previous purchase, and experimented with them, and I really liked the Dotz, so I bought more of them as I can use them on more cables. I've grown philosophical about it, and my conclusion is, in answer to this thread: no, the expenses never come to an end.
 
OldCorpse, how many cables do you have? I bought a 10 pack of bongo ties and it has been good enough for my 1 - 25' xlr cable, 1 - 25' stinger, 10' hdmi cable, and 3 router dimmers. If I need more, I can submit a video to the company of how I use my cable ties and receive 2 more packs for free!

I'd be interested to see your sound package. Are you focusing on sound as a career, or are you making these purchases for convenience sake on personal short films?
 
iamlance said:
OldCorpse, how many cables do you have? I bought a 10 pack of bongo ties and it has been good enough for my 1 - 25' xlr cable, 1 - 25' stinger, 10' hdmi cable, and 3 router dimmers. If I need more, I can submit a video to the company of how I use my cable ties and receive 2 more packs for free!

I'd be interested to see your sound package. Are you focusing on sound as a career, or are you making these purchases for convenience sake on personal short films?
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A whole bunch. That is due to two things: having a variety of lengths, because you want to use the shortest cable you can for the job, but different circumstances dictate different lengths, and second, because you need backup and redundancy. I am not ever going to be a sound pro, but since sound is so important, I really should bear down on all the elements to become intimately familiar with them - if you do it with lights, you should do it with sound. My package is not complete as yet. I have a few shotgun mics: Senn MKE600, AT8035, AT875r, plus some cheapos that were recommended either on this board (Rick R. - VidPro XM-55) or other boards (Boya BY-PVM1000 and BY-PVM1000L), and 4 cheapo plant cardioids (CAD CM217, recommended by Scott). I am still looking to purchase another AT875r and a good interior mic - AT4053b. Eventually down the road, I want to get some wired lavs but am still researching and some nifty recorders for them (JuicedLink DARlings? Tascams?). For recorder/mixer I have the Tascam DR-60D, and am waiting until the DR-70D comes out and most likely will buy that one too. For the blimp I have the Rycote S-Series 450, plus a bunch of dead cats for all the shotguns from Windcutters, boom - K-Tek Avalon alum, a Rycote Softie Lyre Mount & Pistol Grip, Audio-Technica AT8415 Low Profile Universal Shock Mount, plus a bunch of mounts (of variable quality) that came with some of the mics, Senn HD 280 Pro headphones (probably buy another pair, maybe Sony 7506). The rest are various pads, attenuators, polarity plugs, connectors, and so forth - a whole bag of 'em. And of course the miscellaneous SD cards, equipment cases, power banks, chargers, a bag for the 60D, cable ties, and such. I bought the gear because if you are going to learn, you can't just do it from books (bought some of those too), or watching videos (did that too), but from practice - shooting my own shorts, doing little experiments, projects etc.. I am 100% confident, that the more I learn about sound, the more I'll curse my equipment choices so far, but that's the price of learning - you can always do better, and you must do better. I don't want anyone to ever say to me "the sound on your piece sucked". I am immensely grateful for the generosity of the people on this board in sharing their knowledge and experience.
 
You have quite the package there! Mine is more compact, but suits my needs quite well. I tend to stay on the simplified side and purchase when necessary, as I already have too many things to purchase without worrying about getting 5 different variations of each product. It is indeed convenient to have all of the mentioned items, but at least to me, unneeded.

My method is working with the equipment I have (MK-012 3-capsule set, w/ OktavaMod, DR-60D, Rycote BBG and INV-6 shock mount, 25' xlr cable w/ 90 degree ends, 12x Eneloop rechargeables, K-Tek 110CC boompole, and various accessories) until I decide I need a better one or multiple versions. That way, I don't buy anything I won't use and allow myself time to understand why I need such-and-such item. I work on small student films and the sound has improved 100x with this setup than what it was before. I'm not looking for professional quality sound on my budget. Like you, I do not want to focus on sound as a career, but understand it's importance. An AT4073a, Rycote Blimp/Softie, Sony 7506, SD MixPre, and a good bag should bring my kit to a close. Anything better I would probably rent (and likely hire a professional) instead of purchase.

I would rather someone say "Your sound could have improved in this area.", than say "You must have spent your entire budget on only lighting/sound/visuals." My 2 cents.
 
iamlance said:
I bought a 10 pack of bongo ties and it has been good enough for my 1 - 25' xlr cable, 1 - 25' stinger, 10' hdmi cable, and 3 router dimmers.
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Never, ever go into a production with only one of any cable. Cables can go bad without warning, so what will you do when your only XLR cable gives up the ghost in the middle of a shoot?

Further, a selection of lengths makes the kit more versatile.

3' or less: patches and jumpers, good for intra-bag cabling, decoupling boomed mic from internal or external cable.

10': ample for jumping an internally-cabled boom pole to a bag mixer.

20': good, standard length for non-cabled boom poles.

50': handy in the event that a wireless receiver needs to be stretched for coverage, or the boom op has to be removed from the general camera position.
 
I see the practicality for having a backup xlr cable, and will make sure to pick up one soon. Thanks for bringing that up!

However, the other lengths you mentioned I would have no use for in my productions. Wireless receiver? Separate mixer? Nada. Again, very good information and clearly necessary for someone on a larger set, but not for what I do.
If someone is working with multiple kinds of boom poles, wireless receivers, would need patches and jumpers, or other equipment with special uses, then they would pick it up as necessary. Purchasing everything with the mindset that you might need it in the future is just asking for a hurt wallet without good reason. It seems from OldCorpse's current equipment list that much of those cords wouldn't see too much use.
 
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