AC130: Documentary on High School Wrestling. Need B-Roll / Interviews / Close-Ups Camera

R

randomdvx

Member
Long story short I've just been green lighted for a documentary on high-school wrestling. I'm going to be following a team, filming matches, and doing interviews. The Panasonic AC-130 is going to be my main camera. I love it, does some great work, but now I'm looking for a good B-roll cam. I'd love to get something with some nice DOF like a good DSLR, but also some nice quality and as many video comforts as I can get. This will mainly be used for close ups during matches and side profile / closeups during interviews.

On a slightly tight budget, as in 2k and under, but I'm not against used gear either if it gets the job done.

Camera Options

AC90
Black Magic Cinema Cam
GH3
AF100
Canon xf100 ( New Choice 11/21)


AF100 is the front runner so far if I can score one for maybe 1500 and under without a lense.

I wanna make a smart buy without creating a money pit.

Any ideas?
 
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When you say "nice DOF" I'll assume you mean shallow DOF correct?

The AC90 is going to give you the deepest DOF so it is difficult (not impossible but more difficult) to get a nice shallow DOF shot with it compared to the other cameras.

Personally, if I were you and you already have the AC130 with all the nice audio connections, ND filters, etc, I would go for a GH3 or, cheaper still, a hacked GH2.

I can't say personally how well they will match but my guess is that the match will be better between the Panasonic line than it will be mixing with the BMCC. The bugger is that you have to decide what lenses to get that will meet your needs. If your using it as an interview cam or somewhat locked-down B-camera it should work fine. Just bear in-mind that out of the four cams listed, the AC90 is going to be the only one that you can easily move, zoom, focus, and maintain nice steady footage while doing so. The others will require additional gear to be able to shoot, move, recompose, adjust, etc. and still will take longer and be less stabilized.

There are certainly benefits and drawbacks to each but to me personally, if I wanted a B-cam for shallow DOF I'd probably get a used GH2 and a couple lenses that will give me the focal lengths I want. AF100 would probably be my second choice, BMCC third, and AC90 last.

Note: This is merely what "I" would choose to do in that particular situation.
 
R Hudson said:
When you say "nice DOF" I'll assume you mean shallow DOF correct?

The AC90 is going to give you the deepest DOF so it is difficult (not impossible but more difficult) to get a nice shallow DOF shot with it compared to the other cameras.

Personally, if I were you and you already have the AC130 with all the nice audio connections, ND filters, etc, I would go for a GH3 or, cheaper still, a hacked GH2.

I can't say personally how well they will match but my guess is that the match will be better between the Panasonic line than it will be mixing with the BMCC. The bugger is that you have to decide what lenses to get that will meet your needs. If your using it as an interview cam or somewhat locked-down B-camera it should work fine. Just bear in-mind that out of the four cams listed, the AC90 is going to be the only one that you can easily move, zoom, focus, and maintain nice steady footage while doing so. The others will require additional gear to be able to shoot, move, recompose, adjust, etc. and still will take longer and be less stabilized.

There are certainly benefits and drawbacks to each but to me personally, if I wanted a B-cam for shallow DOF I'd probably get a used GH2 and a couple lenses that will give me the focal lengths I want. AF100 would probably be my second choice, BMCC third, and AC90 last.

Note: This is merely what "I" would choose to do in that particular situation.
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Yes I mean something with a nice shallow DOF. Sorry left that word out ;/

I think in a sense I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. I know the AC90 is not the best option, but the price and the run-and-gun options put it in the running. I also like the GH2 but if the budget permits I would upgrade it to the GH3 and gain some of those upgrades if they are worth it.

Here's my full thinking. I use to have a partner that shot with a T3i for some events. He managed to get some good stuff, but he wasn't using the best lenses and the quality just wasn't there. The DOF however gave me that look I needed for close-ups and cut away. I would love to bring this element into this project. At the same time, I know the AC130 can give me a nice solid look for interviews, so I don't think i truly NEED a new cam for that portion unless it added something or gave me better footage. I DO think I could get some nice hand, face, gesture, footage with a GH2/3. I do think however the AF100 may offer a slightly better look for an interview depending on the conditions, but I could be wrong.

During the matches the AC130 will act as the main camera since the action is fast and furious and I don't want to miss anything. However, THIS is where I think the AC90 can be useful. A shallow DOF would be nice, but during the action I don't see it as an essential.

AC90 also seems like it would be a nice B-cam for the other events I do, some weddings and such, but so would the others, if not more so for the look I want.

I think if I can find an AF100 for under 2k I might consider it. I just don't want to buy in, then realize I need 5 lenses to be truly happy. Where as something like the GH3 with some proper lenses should be under 2k. and like you said no audio needed.

desicions desicions.....

hscully said:
The AF100 would be great for it but used they're around $2500 these days
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I'm considering ebay prices for a gently used one. Most under 2k, some lucky enough to be 1500-17. P.s I think your around 5 mins from me ;) I'm based out of W.P
 
If shallow DOF is not that big of a deal to you then the AC90 is a fine camera. I have one myself and I really enjoy it.

The GH2/3, AF100, and BMCC are all going to need lenses and you aren't going to be able to easily get smooth zooms and nice quick adjustments like you can with your AC130 or the AC90. However, if you are comfortable with shooting with more of a cinematic style those other three will give you looks that you really can't get with the 90 (if we are talking shallow DOF).

Determining your lens requirements can be difficult and "can" easily get expensive as well. Just like DSLRs there is no one perfect lens for everything so chances are you will want at least a couple lenses to work with.

You mention a B-cam for the matches. Do you have a qualified person to operate the B-cam? That is more important than the camera itself. If the operator is a dunce the camera is irrelevant. If you have a qualified B-cam operator do they by chance have a camera they could use?

You'll have to assess your needs/desires/budget and make a decision based on that.
 
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You can match about anything to the 130 if you do proper testing and learning. The 130 has very wide ranging image controls to get you in a post-grading ballpark.

I have a much easier time matching Nikon DSLR footage than most Canons - the Canon look seems to have too much orange/yellow in the skin.

I'm really liking the D7100 for SLR video these days - hard to beat for the price. Never been a fan of the GH look, YMMV.

The BMC - read up on BMCuser. It has its pros and cons in the useability dept. I would think for run & gun/doc work, you would really want a viewfinder for it, but it's SDI out only. Converters or pricier VF. For my tastes it's definitely more of a "cinema" camera - it appreciates planning.

Anything you go with will need shoulder mount or similar, factor that in!
 
Hudson- The B-cam Operator was something we use to hire out for, in a sense, but now we are handling that internally so we have to purchase a camera. It will be someone that is good enough to handle the ac130 during the matches to essential 'tape' the match, while I myself would be using the other camera to film the same thing in a more cinematic fashion. Or whether to go with something like the AC90 to film the match and then just use the ac130 to get the cinematic closeups and such.


Carter- I also agree that something like the BMCC is more for a traditional film or non fiction type of setting IMO. I would be using this for interviews mostly, but I also am aware that the Panasonic can do a great job in this setting so I'm not immediately just trying to replace it. Like you said, this being a documentary, the only times I will truly be anchored is during interviews and maybe during a match, but even then the action will be happening all over the place. I think the BMCC is out of the budget, but I do know a friend with one so if the opportunity presented itself I would like to be ready.


I know first and foremost that I have yet to master the AC130 so this will be a lesson in that as well. In all honesty if I had the funds I would just pick up another one, problem solved ;) I do however need another cam for the other work I do so I'm essential trying to combine both pots and fill both needs. I think something like the AF100 could do that, but I also think it could easily expand into an expensive transition. I also seem to go back to this camera often because I never wanted to make the DSLR jump. I love my stabilizer, Viewfinder, ND Filters, XLR plugs and such and I would hate to buy in then feel the need to add on those options. I will also add another camera to the list which was my first love, the Canon XF100. Almost bought this before the ac130 but the zoom was under impressive. I don't regret my choice.

Thanks for the info. Hope this helps others and always looking for advice. This is an ongoing process but eventually I'll have to make a decision :Drogar-Thinking(DBG

Part 2 question. If I am Leaning towards something like a GH3, is there any reason NOT to consider a Canon t5i/60/70d or somthing in that range?? I figure that's a completly different pandoras box but might as well throw it out there.
 
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Side Note. I would also like to say that I'm not obsessed with the DSLR 'look'. I love my ac130. Every time I shoot with it I know I made the right decision. I wanted a great cam with and awesome image and fantastic zoom and that's what I got.

If this cam has every let me down 9/10 it was my fault.

There are other aspects of my filming that I'm sure need work so buying an additional cam is just something that has to be done, not so much because I want to or that my main camera isn't good enough.
 
My main thoughts on anything besides the AC90 is that if you are shooting sports it will be a gigantic PITA following the action, maintaining focus, etc in comparison to a more "traditional" video camera. As long as you know that going into it that's fine.
 
randomdvx said:
Part 2 question. If I am Leaning towards something like a GH3, is there any reason NOT to consider a Canon t5i/60/70d or somthing in that range?? I figure that's a completly different pandoras box but might as well throw it out there.
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Having owned canon and nikon (but not GH) I'd look at the Nikon 7100 or 5200. I find that a "real" video cam (such as the 130) and a good DSLR is a killer combo. I often use the SLR in interviews to get hand motions and a 2nd angle - which helps to edit out "umms" and stutters. I think of the 130 as my "camera" and the nikon as my "pretty camera". Not to say the 130 isn't capable of beauty, but a good SLR in good hands can be a little magical.

Did a food shoot (video, for a major regional chain) today with the 7100... impressed again. Liking it more every day.
 
R Hudson said:
My main thoughts on anything besides the AC90 is that if you are shooting sports it will be a gigantic PITA following the action, maintaining focus, etc in comparison to a more "traditional" video camera. As long as you know that going into it that's fine.
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Yeah......I was aware of the risks, but it doesn't seem like its the smartest thing or absolutely necessary for what I'm filming. I have a hundred other things i need to worry about and focus on. Might be a slight waste of money if I only end up using a DLSR type for interviews when i could use the AC90 to help cover the event properly. I'm just looking for the best product possible.


Michael Carter said:
Having owned canon and nikon (but not GH) I'd look at the Nikon 7100 or 5200. I find that a "real" video cam (such as the 130) and a good DSLR is a killer combo. I often use the SLR in interviews to get hand motions and a 2nd angle - which helps to edit out "umms" and stutters. I think of the 130 as my "camera" and the nikon as my "pretty camera". Not to say the 130 isn't capable of beauty, but a good SLR in good hands can be a little magical.

Did a food shoot (video, for a major regional chain) today with the 7100... impressed again. Liking it more every day.
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This is exactly what I was going for. Something tells me in the end I'm going to end up with 3 cameras ; /


AC90 looks more and more capable the more I read up. I honeslty didn't even look in its direction since I had the ac130 and wasn't shopping.
 
randomdvx said:
This is exactly what I was going for. Something tells me in the end I'm going to end up with 3 cameras ; /.
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I was going to suggest that but I hesitated due to your budget. I can vouch for the D5200 as being quite good for video. It is not as user friendly for video but the results are quite nice. Since I got mine (mainly for stills) I find myself shooting with it more and more.
 
Just a small update. I decided to go with..........................................

The GH3.

I scored one in a pre black friday sale for an amazing price. It was too good to pass up and worked well for my budget. I've been doing some testing and I'm very happy with the results.

I'm already in the process of filming but so far it looks like I'll be using the ac130 for the main footage of the matches and the Gh3 for the closeups of the coach, ref, crowd and things like that. I have my wireless mic on the coach which runs through the AC130, and a shotgun mic in the other port. I'm also using a Zoom H4n off of the score table for the ambient noise and for the other coach's audio.

I'll be sharing some footage of here to give you guys and idea of whats possible but it looks really good. Very busy week but the match last night was great and finally let me see this project start to come together.

I think the GH3 will add some great shots during interviews and for some other B-roll material. I just filmed some great snow scenery footage and I loved the portability of it. The weather sealing also helps ease my mind.
 
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