Do you think DiscoveryHD channel will accept HVX imagery for their channel?
- Thread starter radtex
- Start date
Alex Leith
Well-known member
Probably not officially... Although it gives them a challenge as how do they now distinguish between 1/3in CCD and 2/3in CCD cameras (before they could do it just by only accepting certain formats).
However! If it's shot well enough, and the material is compelling enough, then there may be no reason for them to know it was shot on an HVX, if you're delivering on HDCAM 1080i59.94...
However! If it's shot well enough, and the material is compelling enough, then there may be no reason for them to know it was shot on an HVX, if you're delivering on HDCAM 1080i59.94...
Gibby
Red Savant
radtex said:
My company, Cut4 Media Group, is registered with Discovery Networks list of producers. So far we've contributed some production to standard definition series that aired on TLC and Animal Planet. If you are a production entity, not an individual shooter, you can go to the Discovery Networks Producers Portal and register.
When you get to the Home Page of the link I've sent, you'll see a link that reads "Production Tools: Submit Your ideas". On that page it will give you details on how to register your company with Discovery. It will take a few days for them to clear you for access to submit your ideas to them. In that area of their site you'll also find a CGI menu for each of the channels of Discovery Networks, including whether or not they're accepting submissions, etc. If you go through the menu for each of the channels, there is some tech info on submission requirements, although there isn't exact info there on Discovery HD's tech requirements.
On the Home Page you'll also find a link that reads "Resources: The Production Guide". You can only access that area of the site with a password if you are already producing content for Discovery Networks.
As I remember, for Discovery HD they want content acquired in 35mm or HD. Broadcast masters must be delivered to them in HDCAM format. Will well-shot HVX200 footage be good enough? Probably. What you would need to do is take your HVX200 footage into your editing system via Firewire, think about transcoding it to HDCAM 1080i for editing, rent an HDCAM deck for a few hours to master the show in HDCAM 1080i, and deliver it to Discovery. Discovery broadcasts all their HD content in 1080i. If the content you're shooting will lend itself to good production values in 1080i, and you know it is destined for Discovery HD, you might just want select 1080i on the HVX as your acquisition resolution to avoid possible problems in transcoding from another resolution to 1080i.
Link to Discovery Producer's Portal: http://producers.discovery.com/
Hope this helps you!
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
Gibby
Red Savant
stabwound said:
If your local cable company has a dedicated HD channel, my guess is that it would be 1080i60, or possibly 1080i50 since you are in Canada. In the USA their are two different standards broadcast: 1080i and 720p.
Here's a list of USA networks and the resolutions they broadcast in:
720p - ESPN, Fox, ABC
1080i - NBC, CBS, HDNet, Discovery HD
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
alpi69
Veteran
how big is the difference in shooting 720p and 1080i and 1080p when seen on a HD screen?
if they take 35mm then 1080p should work just like 1080i. I never saw 720p footage, so i don´t know how that holds up against 1080i/p.
The biggest problem for shooting for discovery with the HVX is the short lens. a Canon HDV has a better lens for that, but then that is HDV...
if they take 35mm then 1080p should work just like 1080i. I never saw 720p footage, so i don´t know how that holds up against 1080i/p.
The biggest problem for shooting for discovery with the HVX is the short lens. a Canon HDV has a better lens for that, but then that is HDV...
ChuckS
Veteran
They don't take 35mm, they accept 35mm originated content that has been telecined and delivered on HDcam 1080i.alpi69 said:
Gibby's suggestion about shooting in 1080i instead of 1080p, to avoid any potential conflicts later in the post production process is a good suggestion. The only recomendation that he made that I migh change, only after doing a test to make sure which provides the better quality, would be to edit in DVCProHD and then output HDSDI to an HDcam.
At any rate try to keep your workflow as simple as possible so when it goes wrong its easier to fix :thumbsup:
Gibby
Red Savant
alpi69 said:
In a trade magazine recently I remember some info stating that the average HDTV viewer sits about 15' from the screen, and that their studies showed that at that distance the human eye doesn't see much difference between 720p and 1080p.
The HVX lens (13x) is a bit short for some shooting scenarios of Discovery-type content, but very quickly after the release of the HVX you can bet that Century Optics, CAVision, 16x9, and others will have 1.6x teleconverters available that are optically matched to the HVX's Leica lens. A 13x lens with a 1.6x converter gets you out to almost 21x (20.8), so it would do pretty well for long focal length shooting needs.
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
alpi69
Veteran
ChuckS said:
that´s what i meant.
we delivered a lot of DV-shot footage on BetaSP to networks which officially didn´t take DV. I expect it to be the same with DVCpro and HDCam. If the content is highquality (which Discovery always is!) then a well made DVCProHD film from the HVX should get accepted on HDCAM
There are contractual specifics, on a show by show basis, for ratios of HDCam to other formats - HDV included. HDV in its native format does not conform to DCI HDTheater standards, and that makes it an expensive proposition.
Everything acquired in 60i HDV must be "uprezzed" to HDCam - we had about 2000 hours done on Driver X. The best part is keeping your HDV shooters at exactly 40 minutes (or less) on a 60 minute tape - fun. If you've got a one-off, this isn't a big deal, but if you've got thirteen or twenty-four or six... well, now you're talking about some real money.
I have a pitch underway for DCI, and we've kinda been told that Panasonic's 720p, which is our preferred format (variable framerates) for this particular property, isn't likely to be acceptable for HDTheater.
The problem is, DCI doesn't seem to want anything to originate in SD - regardless of whether it is intended for HDTheater markets at all. Add to this their hard-on for 1080i right now and you've got some hoops to jump through.
e
Everything acquired in 60i HDV must be "uprezzed" to HDCam - we had about 2000 hours done on Driver X. The best part is keeping your HDV shooters at exactly 40 minutes (or less) on a 60 minute tape - fun. If you've got a one-off, this isn't a big deal, but if you've got thirteen or twenty-four or six... well, now you're talking about some real money.
I have a pitch underway for DCI, and we've kinda been told that Panasonic's 720p, which is our preferred format (variable framerates) for this particular property, isn't likely to be acceptable for HDTheater.
The problem is, DCI doesn't seem to want anything to originate in SD - regardless of whether it is intended for HDTheater markets at all. Add to this their hard-on for 1080i right now and you've got some hoops to jump through.
e
Gibby
Red Savant
ChuckS said:
Excellent advice. That's the workflow my company would use. We edit in FCP, so we would Firewire the footage in, edit in DVCProHD, and then output via HD-SDI to a rented HDCAM deck. Perhaps on some NLE's it that don't handle DVCProHD natively it would then be a good idea to transcode to HDCAM, edit by low-res proxy, and output a full-res version to an HDCAM deck.
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
Gibby
Red Savant
overlandfilms said:
My company shares your dilemma Overland. We're in the middle of several pitches to Discovery. We love shooting in 720p with a Varicam, and I'm sure we'll love shooting with an HVX in 720p, especially when it needs to be intercut with Varicam footage. DCI has been slow to recognize the outstanding quality of the 720p DVCProHD footage shot with the Varicam. I'm sure they will "officially" be equally slow to recognize that HVX footage, edited and mastered to them in 1080i HDCAM, will meet their broadcast standards. You're entirely right in saying that DCI restricts the percentage of uprezzed SD footage and HDV footage in programs for airing on Discovery HD. I think that when producers like Overland and Cut4 start bringing high-quality HVX-originated content to them, mastered in HDCAM, they will realize that DVCProHD, with it's 4:2:2 color space, shouldn't be grouped with HDV and uprezzed SD in their list of restrictions. Also, when DCI understands that the HVX200 can shoot in their 1080i format they will be more apt to approve acquisition with the HVX.
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
ChuckS
Veteran
Hi Gibby,
I'm cuurently using Cineforms AspectHD to convert HDV to an intermediate HD format. So far the quality is quite good. I'm not doing this in hopes of being able to pull the wool over the eye's of anyone requiring an HDcam master, however, I am hoping that this workflow can be used with DVCProHD [or any other format] so that I can develop a standard for post that would allow me much more flexibility in mixing formats and yeild whatever format required for output.
I'm cuurently using Cineforms AspectHD to convert HDV to an intermediate HD format. So far the quality is quite good. I'm not doing this in hopes of being able to pull the wool over the eye's of anyone requiring an HDcam master, however, I am hoping that this workflow can be used with DVCProHD [or any other format] so that I can develop a standard for post that would allow me much more flexibility in mixing formats and yeild whatever format required for output.
Chuck,
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
e
I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
e
Gibby
Red Savant
ChuckS said:
I don't think it's about pulling the wool over anyone's eyes. The real bottom line is what the mastered final product looks like. I've heard some good reports on Aspect HD, Connect HD, and the CFHD codec. If HDV is shot very carefully, input to an NLE as CFHD, edited, and output via HD-SDI to HDCAM, it may look excellent. If a contract with Discovery or any other HD-airing network does not specifically restrict the acquisition format, camera model, or restrict a ratio thereof, and the finished HDCAM master looks good and professionally-produced, it's in the network's and producer's to not split hairs on it and to air it. If a contract specifically limits the amount of DVCProHD, HDV, or uprezzed SD content in the program, a contract is a contract, and it's provisions should be honored.
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
jessecoane
Active member
I've heard that discoveryHD will also except sdx900 footage. Thats the only SD footage they wil except.
jesse
jesse
Gibby
Red Savant
alpi69 said:
My company has used a 3-chip DV acquisition, editing, and Beta SP mastering workflow for scores of national television programs. Earlier this year we produced a nationally airing television special featuring the NFL Super Bowl week in Jacksonville. We wanted a reality look and pace for the show, and we had all-access passes to all the events of the week, culminating with on field (after the game) and Patriots locker room after the game. There were over 2,400 press credentials issued for the Super Bowl. We only had three passes - talent, me as producer/director/Camera 1, and a Camera B guy. Almost every camera crew there used full-sized SD and HD cameras. We knew we would be in a virtual "rugby scrum" with other crews wherever we went, so we opted to use 3-chip DV cameras, hand held, with wide angle converters, mini-sunguns, wireless mics, pistol grips. The strategy of using the smaller DV cameras was a winner. All week we saw guys around us getting basic, stationary, hand held and tripod shots, while our crews were hyper-mobile, getting highly-creative shots, high and low angles, moving with player shots, etc. In the center of the field after the game, the crush of camera crews was unbelievable! We were able to reach high, use the on-camera LCD’s for framing, and get much better shots than the large camera guys. Several times during the week other camera crews said they wished for creativity sake and their lower back sake that they were using out cameras. With all the accessories on our cameras they looked very professional in form factor.
The DV footage was Firewired into one of our editing systems, edited, and mastered to Beta SP for airing. The self-syndicated show aired nationally to around 30 million homes on Dish Network and various cable systems. We pulled off the limited-budget project with a crew of three, 2 DV camcorders, and 1 editor. Where there's a will - there's a way. Info and a trailer for the show can be found on our web site at the link below.
Maximizing technology, and minimizing overhead is definitely the mantra for small boutique production houses. The HVX will fit nicely into that mantra for HD television content. I expect it to be used widely in SD and HD television production of various genres.
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
Gibby
Red Savant
jessecoane said:
If you mean that SDX900 footage is the only SD footage Discovery will accept that has been uprezzed to HDCAM, I believe that Discovery HD will accept uprezzed SD footage from several SD formats, but only for short sequences where the footage is needed for telling the story - and no hi-def footage is available of that particular thing. As I remember, no more than 15% of a Discovery HD program can be uprezzed SD.
The SDX900 produces amazing SD images. We've used it repeatedly for television projects. The DVCPro50 format is robust and the SDX900 maximizes the format. SDX900 footage reportedly uprezzes quite well to HD.
Gibby
www.cut4.tv
alpi69
Veteran
Gibby, I envy you for getting paid to attend the superbowl!
your story is absolutely my experience here in Europe. They all stick to certain relatively high technical limits to protect themselves from the "everyday-material", but if you deliver good content that was shot with care and professional then they accept it.
Of course HD will be a bit different with the different formats and sizes. You anyway have to take more car in production and with a lower format even more so to reach the quality needed.
your story is absolutely my experience here in Europe. They all stick to certain relatively high technical limits to protect themselves from the "everyday-material", but if you deliver good content that was shot with care and professional then they accept it.
Of course HD will be a bit different with the different formats and sizes. You anyway have to take more car in production and with a lower format even more so to reach the quality needed.