Do I need two boom operators?

[Ask_the_dusk]

Hi everyone, hope you can help me with this.Its a bit stupid question, but I know very little about sound....I have more than few shots of dialogue, inside a big living room, where the two actors are some 6-7 meters apart from each other . Do I need two boom operators to record this? And one more..Is it better to record voice over in the ADR or on location?

 

[Alex H.]

For shots where both actors are in frame, yeah... there's no way a single boom op can cover that kind of distance. Indidvidual close-ups, of course, don't require dialog from the other actor since those lines can be read off-camera simply as prompts for the actor on-camera.

As for your second question, it's always going to look and sound better to get clean production dialog. ADR is a tricky beast, and is rarely executed the right way. If it's not properly done, it will sound very unnatural. It's also an expensive and time-consuming process.

 

[kylevant]

As for your second question, it's always going to look and sound better to get clean production dialog. ADR is a tricky beast, and is rarely executed the right way. If it's not properly done, it will sound very unnatural. It's also an expensive and time-consuming process.

I agree. Don't do ADR if it's going to sound fake and unnatural. I've seen way too many films with really badly done ADR that really detracts from the story.

 

[Noiz2]

If I read his post correctly he was asking if it's better to do Voice Over on location or in an ADR studio.

In the studio will be the better choice.

Good ADR is hard to do which makes it either take a long time or cost a lot of money. You are almost always better off with production sound.
So if you were asking about that the answer is to avoid ADR if possible.

As to the two shot. IF you are going to use a lot of the shot where both are visible (and talking) then you do need to figure out how to mic it and a single boom is not very likely to work. BUT that would be a very strange and not very interesting edit to watch. In that kind of scene a much more common and interesting edit will be cutting back and forth so we are looking at one character and then the other mixed with some wide shots to set the scene.

It is quite possible to edit a scene like that and never show the lips of the person speaking. That would also be a bit weird but it's very common to only see the person talking part of the time and hardly ever be in a position where both are talking at the same time in a wide shot.

Just as it's quite possible to shoot a believable car interior scene in a car that isn't actually moving. It depends on how you edit.

So my advice is to work backward. Do the shot list and make a paper edit. You will probably find that you can shoot the scene with a single boom op.

 

[Rick R]

A wild sound line can also save much expense and aggravation for production and talent. For questionable shots, I have often had the actors read their lines off camera at a reasonable mic'ing distance, whilst the room ambiance and emotions are still intact. Most pro actors will love for it.

 

[davefisk]

A union show will typically have a 3 person sound crew...The sound mixer, the boom op, and the sound utility. Often times, the sound utility will have to act as a second boom. I've been to many sets and I've seen this first hand. The size of the sound crew on a non-union show will vary depending on the budget.

 

[Alan H. Chang]

Hi everyone, hope you can help me with this.Its a bit stupid question, but I know very little about sound....I have more than few shots of dialogue, inside a big living room, where the two actors are some 6-7 meters apart from each other . Do I need two boom operators to record this? And one more..Is it better to record voice over in the ADR or on location?

No such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers. To answer your questions:

Q: "Do I need two boom operators to record this?"
A: Most likely yes for this type of distance you're going to be covering in a single shot. If this is just a wide shot and you'll be cutting into mediums and closeups, you probably won't need two boom operators. You could use some of the medium and closeup dialogue to cover up your wide shots. One boom operator and a lavalier would work as well, but the lavalier track would certainly sound too close and upfront, which means you'll need to add more distance to match the boom microphone.

Q: "ADR or wild lines on set"
Refer to above posts. Wild lines on set > Wild lines in a quiet location > ADR in studio

 

[Doc Bernard]

No such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers. To answer your questions:

Q: "Do I need two boom operators to record this?"
A: Most likely yes for this type of distance you're going to be covering in a single shot. If this is just a wide shot and you'll be cutting into mediums and closeups, you probably won't need two boom operators. You could use some of the medium and closeup dialogue to cover up your wide shots. One boom operator and a lavalier would work as well, but the lavalier track would certainly sound too close and upfront, which means you'll need to add more distance to match the boom microphone.

+10. Glad to see you said this. I was thinking the same thing as I was reading the thread and was about to post the same thing until I read yours Alan.

This is where audio and camera coincide. If camera grabs a wide, and you are just booming, catch what you can. When they push in for coverage, focus your time recording who the camera is catching. If the other talent is reading their lines, you will catch them, but "off-axis", it will be unusable except for syncing. When they reverse it, change your focus as well.

Just make sure to get a good room tone.

 

[Jema]

I'm not as experienced as some of the others who have already responded, but here's my thoughts.

Two boom operators seems like the best and most simple solution, but if it's a question of money or limited people on set, then besides the answers already given, if one of the actors don't move around much it might be possible to use a plant mic hidden on set or on a c-stand or similar. A wide shot such as that would inevitably leave some distance to the mic, and as such it will cover a wider area where differences due to small movements won't be as noticable - as long as he/she speaks in approximately the same direction all the time. This depends entirely on the situation of course.

Another option could be to use two lavs as primary mics, and then a mic with an omni or figure eight-pattern on the boom placed/moving between them for "room".

If it's an option, then I suggest trying out one or two of the advices given to see if it works for you - also good to know for future projects where a similar situation might arise.

 

[gpforet]

This is not a boomable shot. Using the rule of thirds if the actors are 7 meters apart, then the frame will actually be about 10 meters wide, making the height of the frame (using 16:9 aspect) a little over 4 meters. Proper framing will require the boom to be more than 1 meter above the actors to stay out of frame, and unless you're filming in a controlled sound-stage like environment, or using a boat-load of sound blankets (which will be difficult due to the wide framing), the audio will be unusable.

I'd put lavs on the actors for this wide of a shot (primarily to be used as a reference), and then boom the closer coverage shots. With this wide of a shot, the actor's mouth will be so small in the frame that you can use the audio recorded during the close-ups, and provided the actors stay on script, any small sync errors will not be noticable for the wide shot cuts.

Hi everyone, hope you can help me with this.Its a bit stupid question, but I know very little about sound....I have more than few shots of dialogue, inside a big living room, where the two actors are some 6-7 meters apart from each other . Do I need two boom operators to record this? And one more..Is it better to record voice over in the ADR or on location?

 

[Ask_the_dusk]

No such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers. To answer your questions:

Q: "Do I need two boom operators to record this?"
A: Most likely yes for this type of distance you're going to be covering in a single shot. If this is just a wide shot and you'll be cutting into mediums and closeups, you probably won't need two boom operators. You could use some of the medium and closeup dialogue to cover up your wide shots. One boom operator and a lavalier would work as well, but the lavalier track would certainly sound too close and upfront, which means you'll need to add more distance to match the boom microphone.

Thanks for your input. It won't be just a wide shot though, i will have a low M-S of one of the actor who is busy working with a solder iron, while talking with the other actor who is further behind him. They have an important lines and I also hoped to rack focus on the far away actor, but I don't think it would work on such distance ( 6-7 meters. )

 

[Ask_the_dusk]

I'm not as experienced as some of the others who have already responded, but here's my thoughts.

Two boom operators seems like the best and most simple solution, but if it's a question of money or limited people on set, then besides the answers already given, if one of the actors don't move around much it might be possible to use a plant mic hidden on set or on a c-stand or similar. A wide shot such as that would inevitably leave some distance to the mic, and as such it will cover a wider area where differences due to small movements won't be as noticable - as long as he/she speaks in approximately the same direction all the time. This depends entirely on the situation of course.

.... Use a plant mic - I like this. I think it will work. --- thanks !

 

[Ask_the_dusk]

Thank you all. That was really helpful .
And hearing that the majority of you are against ADR is such a good news. I prefer to spend that money on something more important.

 

[davefisk]

This is not a boomable shot. Using the rule of thirds if the actors are 7 meters apart, then the frame will actually be about 10 meters wide, making the height of the frame (using 16:9 aspect) a little over 4 meters. Proper framing will require the boom to be more than 1 meter above the actors to stay out of frame, and unless you're filming in a controlled sound-stage like environment, or using a boat-load of sound blankets (which will be difficult due to the wide framing), the audio will be unusable.

I'd put lavs on the actors for this wide of a shot (primarily to be used as a reference), and then boom the closer coverage shots. With this wide of a shot, the actor's mouth will be so small in the frame that you can use the audio recorded during the close-ups, and provided the actors stay on script, any small sync errors will not be noticable for the wide shot cuts.

This is not necessarily the case. I was just on the set of Desperate Housewives yesterday, and they were shooting pretty wide with two cams, and at the start of the scene the actors were far apart..and with the right mic and proper boom technique, you can get good audio. I was with the production sound mixer, and I was watching the monitors and listening to the audio via Comtek, and it was surprisingly good.

 

[gpforet]

The sound mixer wasn't using lavs?

This is not necessarily the case. I was just on the set of Desperate Housewives yesterday, and they were shooting pretty wide with two cams, and at the start of the scene the actors were far apart..and with the right mic and proper boom technique, you can get good audio. I was with the production sound mixer, and I was watching the monitors and listening to the audio via Comtek, and it was surprisingly good.

 

[Alan H. Chang]

The sound mixer wasn't using lavs?

If there were Special FX, tons of machinery, fans, highway a block or so away all happening on set, I would lav them. If the location is decently quiet, just throw the boom up.

 

[gpforet]

Dave, how far would you say the boom was from the talent? And was this on a studio set?

This is not necessarily the case. I was just on the set of Desperate Housewives yesterday, and they were shooting pretty wide with two cams, and at the start of the scene the actors were far apart..and with the right mic and proper boom technique, you can get good audio. I was with the production sound mixer, and I was watching the monitors and listening to the audio via Comtek, and it was surprisingly good.

 

[davefisk]

Dave, how far would you say the boom was from the talent? And was this on a studio set?

The boom op was about 15 to 20 feet away from the talent. The mic was about 5 or 6 feet above the talent, and the boom op was cue'ing between the two actors. They started about 15 yards apart and then walked towards each other. He was using a Neuman KMR 82. This was on an exterior 2 camera wide shot (on Wysteria Lane) on the Universal backlot. The biggest problem with exterior noise was small planes and helicopters. The lot is under some flight paths, and the scene was almost two minutes long. Planes came over just about every minute or 45 seconds, so there were lots of takes. There was a small plane doing a holding pattern over the lot. The sound mixer actually called the Burbank control tower to tell them to radio the pilot to tell them to leave. The sound mixer uses lavs very sparingly, as he doesn't like the sound of a hidden lav. He tries to boom everything. Apparently they've never had to ADR a single line in 8 seasons of the show, so he knows what he's doing.

 

[Paul Hudson]

Only three word of caution when using two booms...Watch your phase.

 

[Rippie]

The boom op was about 15 to 20 feet away from the talent. The mic was about 5 or 6 feet above the talent, and the boom op was cue'ing between the two actors. They started about 15 yards apart and then walked towards each other. He was using a Neuman KMR 82. This was on an exterior 2 camera wide shot (on Wysteria Lane) on the Universal backlot. The biggest problem with exterior noise was small planes and helicopters. The lot is under some flight paths, and the scene was almost two minutes long. Planes came over just about every minute or 45 seconds, so there were lots of takes. There was a small plane doing a holding pattern over the lot. The sound mixer actually called the Burbank control tower to tell them to radio the pilot to tell them to leave. The sound mixer uses lavs very sparingly, as he doesn't like the sound of a hidden lav. He tries to boom everything. Apparently they've never had to ADR a single line in 8 seasons of the show, so he knows what he's doing.

Dave, the question I have to ask...
after these extreme wides, was there also coverage done afterwards?


Also if they were 45 feet apart and the boom was no more than 5-6 ft from talent and he was swinging 35 ft between them there
must have been some huge gaps in dialog.