Do I Have To Shoot at 1/160?

Jonathan_Healey

Jonathan_Healey

Well-known member
I know the obvious answer is no but is 1/160th the optimum shutter speed for the correct motion blur? Should my lighting and filter goals be to accommodate that shutter speed at varying f-stops? So if I'm shooting f1.8 or f5.6, should I be lighting and using matte box filters to hit 1/160th? Or close to it? Does is this also apply at varying ISO's?
 
1/60th is probably best in an NTSC country because it gives a nice level of motion blur and avoids flickering or moving bands with most light sources.

If you are shooting outdoors during the day you should use ND filters to get to 1/60th at your desired aperture, and if you're indoors you should use lights to get to 1/60th to get at your desired aperture. You can also use ISO. I shoot as slow as 1/30th (or 1/25th but 1/30th is safer with lights I believe) in lowlight, but I try not to ever go faster than 1/60th unless I absolutely have to or if there is not much movement in the shot or if I'm doing it for artistic effect.
 
Just use 1/50 or 1/60 (depending on the country you live in) for casual shots. You can go down to 1/25 or 1/30 when you want a more videoish look.
Shutter speeds about 1/200 and above are very suitable for action scenes. Watch some footage of crank 2 which was shot entierly with 1/1000 and 1/2000 shutter speeds and you´ll get the idea.
 
1/25th and 1/30th won't create a more videoish look, they'll just give more light and more motion blur.
 
Ben_B said:
1/25th and 1/30th won't create a more videoish look, they'll just give more light and more motion blur.
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For me, that´s videoish. Watch "Public Enemies" with Johnny Depp (Director: Michael Mann). They used the open shutter option on their digital cameras (partly Sony EX1). Looks very much like a daily soap, except the lightning, editing, camerawork and acting, of course^^
 
I believe it's faster shutter speeds that give the "video" look, not slower. 1/30 is not going to give you a video look, it's going to give you a smeary, blurry look when your subjects move around. One of the best bits of advice I got when I started shooting DSLR video was the 180-degree shutter rule -- double the shutter speed for a given frame rate. So for NTSC 30fps, shutter should be set to 1/60. For PAL 25fps, 1/50 shutter speed.

I see 1/30 recommended all the time here for GH1/GF1 shooting, usually with the comment "if you need extra help in low light", but I have to say I think it looks lousy. I've ruined a few videos shooting 1/30 shutter thinking it would help me get decent exposure in a low light setting. It didn't. it looked smeary and not film-like at all. So now I shoot 1/60 shutter all the time, and if the room's too dark, I hit it with more light and/or up the ISO. 640 is about the max my GF13 can do without totally falling apart, and Neat Video does wonders to make such footage usable again. Even if it still ends up with a bit of noise, it still looks night and day better than 1/30 video would have.
 
In NTSC countries 1/60 is just about right for every situation. 1/50th is optimal for 24 FPS but 1/60 looks virtually the same. I wouldn't hesitate to go down to 1/25th in low light though. You get the banding problem when you underexpose with ISO 3200. Try to avoid that scenario at all costs.

I use 1/120 with 720p @ 60 FPS outdoors. You will start to get the flicker affect faster than 1/120th of a second.

I did an experiment tonight and went down to 1/2 a second, ISO 3200, and F1.2. I was able to shoot video in absolute pitch black. The only illumination was from my daughters Glow Blanket. Wait till you guys see this video!
 
Yeah I disagree strongly with that guy. Shoot 1/60th because you will get problems under many lights without it (in NTSC countries) and you might not notice till post. Shoot 360º if you need to in low light rather than deal with horrible high ISO or never having critical focus...assuming there isn't much motion and you can get away with it. Shoot 1/60th with 60p if you're planning to convert to 24p in post. Shoot fast shutter if you need it for artistic effect.
 
Barry_Green said:
But it totally ignores the fluorescent issue of waves scrolling through your footage. I STRONGLY suggest to keep your shutter at 1/50 in PAL territories and 1/60 in NTSC territories whenever using a CMOS camcorder.
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Agreed!

Barry does 1/30th also avoid this in NTSC regions and 1/25th in PAL?
 
Yep. If it's a multiple (or divisor?) of 1/60th it should be clear in the NTSC territories, so 1/120, 2/120, 3/120, 4/120, and 5/120 should be all clear (which are, reduced, 1/120, 1/60, 1/40, 1/30, and 1/24). And in PAL territories you should be clear with 1/100, 1/50, and 1/25.
 
Barry_Green said:
But it totally ignores the fluorescent issue of waves scrolling through your footage. I STRONGLY suggest to keep your shutter at 1/50 in PAL territories and 1/60 in NTSC territories whenever using a CMOS camcorder.
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Fair enough - point taken.

I'm getting an NTSC GH2 because I want to shoot in 24p for easier transfer to film. I'm in a PAL country. Do you think I'll have the fluro issue? I guess they just avoid fluros when shooting film at 23.98?
 
You will always have the fluoro issue on any rolling-shutter cmos camera, unless you use a shutter speed that is in sync with the power frequency of the country you're in. If you're shooting in PAL, use 1/50th for your standard speed, and 1/100 for your 60p slow-mo overcranked speed.
 
I guess the question of whether to drop shutter speeds to 1/30 in low light is going to come up quite a bit now that it seems to be the solution to the low light banding issue. This thread seems to be converging with the 'GH2: Blue horizontal banding?' thread.

 
This is kind of long, but does get around to talking about shutter speeds. And may also help someone faced with a similar situation.

Just had a shoot in a virtual reality lab where the scene involved an operator sitting at a computer desk with dual monitors and a test subject standing in front of and facing a large 3D rear-projector screen. There were a couple of challenges. First, it was a small space so getting the whole scene in was a problem. And having at least one establishing shot with everything included was essential to understanding the workings of the lab. Thankfully, the Lumix 7-14mm saved the day! Really can't sing the praises for that lens loud enough - there's so much to like. It's insanely wide and rectilinear. And, since the shot was locked down distortion wasn't really an issue. However, it also presented a problem due to being 4.0 since the test subject was close to the projector screen so we were limited in the lighting we could use without washing out the screen. And the image on the screen wasn't throwing any appreciable light on the subject.

The camera was already set at 1/60 when I turned it on and I immediately noticed the projector screen had pretty bad rolling band issues. The computer screens were fine. They were using two single-chip DLP projectors (with spinning color wheels) to project 3D images onto the large screen. I had never dealt with this before and was surprised to see the band issue at 1/60. So I was relieved to find that going to 1/30 shutter pretty much solved that problem. Not sure why. Of course, it also helped with the low light situation and with careful light placement I was able to get the shots. Should mention that it was a two camera shoot so the confined space and critical light placement further complicated things and limited where we could place lights and cameras. Gotta love challenges.

It was only after the shoot that I was able to Google the rolling band issue and could only find one post anywhere that referred to the issue being inherent with single-chip DLP projectors with spinning color wheels. Maybe the fact that they were using two projectors in tandem further complicated things, I really don't know. But the point is that shooting at 1/30 solved that problem (pretty much) and also helped with a very difficult low light situation. Should also mention that the test subject wasn't moving much so increased blur wasn't an issue at 1/30.

And, I'll say it once more, that 7-14 is one incredible, fantastic lens. Did I mention that I kinda like it? :)
 
shaveblog said:
He recommends 1/48 because he's taking about 24fps video. 1/48 shutter speed gives the proper 180-degree shutter for 24p video. If you're shooting 30p like I do on the the GF1, you're best off with 1/60 shutter speed.
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And I would argue that 1/60 is just about as appropriate for 24p as it is for 30p. The visual difference is minimal; I doubt there are very many people on the planet who could tell the difference. But you can definitely tell the difference between fluttering waves rolling through your footage, and footage that doesn't have the waves.

By the way, there is nothing magical or sacred about 180 degrees. Film cameras have all sorts of shutter angles. I currently have four film cameras, not one of them has a 180-degree shutter; they range from 156 to 220 degrees, and they all produce images that look like film. 1/60 is well within the ballpark, and it avoids complications. When working with a CMOS camera, I advise to always use 1/60th in NTSC territories, and just forget 1/50th.
 
And I would argue that you're right on both counts!

I don't consider 180-degree shutter sacred, but just about. Because I only started to love my video when I was finally able to lock 1/60 shutter thanks to the hack. I've read accounts from experts like you that it doesn't have to be exactly 180 degrees to look filmic, but 1/60 always works great for me on the GF13 so I leave it there and it always delivers.

Barry_Green said:
And I would argue that 1/60 is just about as appropriate for 24p as it is for 30p. The visual difference is minimal; I doubt there are very many people on the planet who could tell the difference. But you can definitely tell the difference between fluttering waves rolling through your footage, and footage that doesn't have the waves.

By the way, there is nothing magical or sacred about 180 degrees. Film cameras have all sorts of shutter angles. I currently have four film cameras, not one of them has a 180-degree shutter; they range from 156 to 220 degrees, and they all produce images that look like film. 1/60 is well within the ballpark, and it avoids complications. When working with a CMOS camera, I advise to always use 1/60th in NTSC territories, and just forget 1/50th.
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