DISCOVERY's position on HVX

Maybe its also a matter of "owning" the master, having it actually stuck in the shelves of their archives and having ALL the rights...?
With P2 and other non tape solutions they´ll have to rethink...
 
I think this raises the big weakness of P2 - no built in back up. Any time saved capturing is lost in backing up the material afterwards. For news and fast turnaround work, this is great because they don't have the time before the edit, only after it. For longer schedule shooting the benefits aren't there yet for me.

By DVCPRO 100 I wonder if they mean 720p60 or only 1080? I guess that they accept 720p from Varicam but then would they accept 720p24 (or 25 or 30)?
 
Don't you think memory is getting to the point where it will represent a lower-cost, more robust medium for archiving than tape?

Tape with zeros and ones is more stretchy, prone to breakage and degradation over time than disk-based solutions. Naturally, high capacity solid state would be even better.

I feel like we're in a pretty good place already, and Moore be willing, things can only get better.

e
 
overlandfilms said:
Don't you think memory is getting to the point where it will represent a lower-cost, more robust medium for archiving than tape?

Tape with zeros and ones is more stretchy, prone to breakage and degradation over time than disk-based solutions. Naturally, high capacity solid state would be even better.

I feel like we're in a pretty good place already, and Moore be willing, things can only get better.
Click to expand...

Moore seems to be taking a break at the moment though. I think we are pushing boundaries that don't flex... until the next breakthrough!

Basically I don't trust hard drives. Another one went down on me yesterday!! ARGGHHHH!! Tape is very reliable amd can be mended with sticky tape if it rips. Granted, we do need a good long term storage solution. I hope BluRay disks have a long shelf life.
 
I hear ya mmm. Hard drives fail and I don't think that they're robust enough to be an archiving medium.

The idea of P2 is intriguing, but I too have witnessed two hard drive failures in the past two months and have had to deal with the painful process of rebuilding 'em and at this point it's hard for me to trust them. I know redundancy is the key, but how long should an HD life's expectancy be? When should I back off the data to another HD after it's been sitting on the shelf? How many HDs should I keep of my data?...

16 and 32GB P2s would be the answer, but when.... and at what cost?
 
I have been backing up every P2 card to DVD-R,
I have a copy on a mac G-raid, copy on FAT formatted PC drive
and the DVD.
 
mmm said:
I think this raises the big weakness of P2 - no built in back up. Any time saved capturing is lost in backing up the material afterwards.
Click to expand...
That's such a tape mindset though. It's just data. When I save a Word document on my computer, it exists in three different places within a few hours, on three machines in three geographically diverse places in the world. What tape is ever going to give you that?

I realize bandwidth isn't quite there for most of us, but for people pioneering this kind of thing, I'm sure they're well ahead of the curve. Don't you think Lucasfilm has something offsite and always backing up?

It's a networked world. Stop thinking about tape.
 
jeffyjones said:
That's such a tape mindset though. It's just data. When I save a Word document on my computer, it exists in three different places within a few hours, on three machines in three geographically diverse places in the world. What tape is ever going to give you that?

I realize bandwidth isn't quite there for most of us, but for people pioneering this kind of thing, I'm sure they're well ahead of the curve. Don't you think Lucasfilm has something offsite and always backing up?

It's a networked world. Stop thinking about tape.
Click to expand...

But tape doesn't have to have redundancy. People in IT go through these measures to prevent data loss, in IT it's a necessity. With tape to be sure you could just dupe the tape if you wanted, but if it was there on ingest, you're pretty sure it's still there when it's in the rack. And when the HD fails, it's still there to recapture from.

I don't mind an IT work-flow as IT is my background, but I don't know if I'm ready to jump on the wagon just yet.
 
You know I've been thinking since I made the initial post regarding this subject and am wondering if there's some lobbying Panasonic can do to try to sway DCI more in favor of the HVX. I mean we're getting 100mbps and 4:2:2 out of this camera. That has to stand for something.

I don't know if Jan is monitoring this thread... but it would be nice to hear from her on the subject.

Jim
 
jeffyjones said:
That's such a tape mindset though. It's just data. When I save a Word document on my computer, it exists in three different places within a few hours, on three machines in three geographically diverse places in the world. What tape is ever going to give you that?

I realize bandwidth isn't quite there for most of us, but for people pioneering this kind of thing, I'm sure they're well ahead of the curve. Don't you think Lucasfilm has something offsite and always backing up?

It's a networked world. Stop thinking about tape.
Click to expand...

With a HVX, I could easily shoot 100GB in a day. I'm pretty sure my broadband wouldn't like me sending that around the web. A 100KB word file is slightly different.

It is only data on a digital tape too, you just have to access it by linear means.
 
A lto-2 drive cost €1100 and a tape for 200GB (=16 hour dv25, 8 hour dv50 and 4 hour dv100) cost €35. It can not be cheaper with tape based solutions. (And the P2 card is not replacement for tapes, they are a part of the camera).

I corrected €350 to €35
 
Last edited:
It will change. When a critical mass of people shooting fantastic stuff start selling compelling content to other HD outlets.....
DCI is not the only HD channel around. New ones are coming on-line every month. Once DCI starts missing the boat on some choice shows.....
This weekend we are shooting in SD a new reality based series ala
Extreme Home MakeOver, we have the funding and sponsors for the pilot. I am bringing the HVX and will shoot behind the scenes (in HD)and main interviews in SD for now. Once we get a green light we will probably shoot with 3 HVX's all in 720p for a season of shows. This will NOT be shopped to DCI but it should show up in 2007 on some HD channel near you!!!
 
tim_brown said:
But tape doesn't have to have redundancy.
Click to expand...
So tapes don't fail? I've lost plenty of tapes to everything from a hot car to simple QA issues.
mmm said:
With a HVX, I could easily shoot 100GB in a day. I'm pretty sure my broadband wouldn't like me sending that around the web. A 100KB word file is slightly different.
Click to expand...
And we'll never need more than 640k of memory and 56k modems, etc. You're missing the point. A few years ago no one had broadband at home, and businesses were lucky to have a T-1. Times are changing. Maybe this particular technology is a year or two ahead of the curve, or maybe some of you just don't believe what's out there in terms of bandwidth and disk space out there.

Are you aware that the BBC intends to put everything it has online? I was at a Microsoft conference in Vegas last week where the BBC's new media guy stood there next to Bill Gates and showed us a demo of something they have working today (and probably will sneak into Windows Vista). The purpose of the demo was to show off what you could do with Vista, but the product was BBC shows, delivered, sorted and used in ways that make the iTunes Music Store look like ancient technology.

As soon as people start getting over the tapeless fear and start working problems into solutions, we're entering a great new world. There are SERIOUS opportunities here.
 
These will be my last thoughts as I feel we've veered way of topic of Jim's original post which was referring to the quality coming off the HVX chipset, but...

jeffyjones, I'm not saying tapes don't fail. Nothing's foolproof but if an entire tape fails I've lost an hour of footage... Of course it's a huge loss, that's not the point. If I lose my HD, I could lose many multiples of GBs of data.

I think with the advent of P2, people need to approach it as an IT workflow and abandon all notions of previous workflows as has been stated. I just think it will be awhile before this transition happens.
 
tim_brown said:
I think with the advent of P2, people need to approach it as an IT workflow and abandon all notions of previous workflows as has been stated. I just think it will be awhile before this transition happens.
Click to expand...

Lets start a new thread titled "P2 workflow"
 
Seems like the networks stance on costs is slightly misguided and skewed. How could shooting on a varicam or other HD camera be anywhere as cost effective as an HVX... even given the conversion to the DVCPRO HD deck.... The cost of renting the camera...tape stock, crew, insurance..and just about everything else associated with that would be multiple times more expensive than even purchasing an HVX if you were shooting a series.

Does also reek of the whole Mc TV syndrome. Seen it in action on the food network and HGTV and Travel channel.. That is until something comes along that is too good to care about such techie stuff... Good content is good content.. even on a single chip DV.
 
jeffyjones said:
And we'll never need more than 640k of memory and 56k modems, etc. You're missing the point. A few years ago no one had broadband at home, and businesses were lucky to have a T-1. Times are changing. Maybe this particular technology is a year or two ahead of the curve, or maybe some of you just don't believe what's out there in terms of bandwidth and disk space out there.
Click to expand...

Looking to the future, I agree, tape isn't going to last. But I have to make a living in the present and if DCI want tape output, that's what you have to deliver. I can see why they want the tape too. Imagine people bringing in hard drives and ipods and DVD-Rs with their rushes, it would just be a pain in the arse.

I can see a day when we can shoot, retire to our homes in the middle of no-where and distribute straight over the web to the client. Of course it will happen one day, but for now we have to live with what we've got. I'm not going to buy a technology now that will be great in three or four years. My next camera will probably be tapeless and I look forward to it...when the time comes. Until then, my HD101 has a great workflow.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top