disadvantage of filming in 50p editing 25p

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tikigod19

Well-known member
hi all, ive read about the smooth slow motion you can get with 50p so was thinking of shooting weddings entirely in 720 50p (my end product is usually DVD only occasionally bluray) but have been told that by dropping 50p footage onto a 25p timeline I'll loose half of the frames.

I really like the more filmic look of 25p so would like to edit 25p. (Unless of course you still get this look with 50p due to the progressive nature of the frames? But I suspect its a combination of the 25fps and the progressive nature that gives this look - can someone confirm?)

I was just wondering is there an obvious disadvantage of shooting 720 50p all the time if I'm only going to use slow mo for maybe 10% of it?

Thanks,
 
If you know where you would like to use 50p ...mostly action shots I'd shoot 25p most of the time. You can still get that "film motion" I call it with 50p . It depends on your shutterspeed 1/50th or 1/100th.

Maybe you could test it : just shoot a card full of footage at both frame rates, edit and burn it so you can judge the workflow, look and feel of the end product.

BTW Im an NTSC (24/60p) user but it should be the same for 25/50p.
 
i dont have the camera to test it yet thats the only thing.

So what is the difference in the look of 25p and 50p? I never realised the shutter made a difference in the look other than reducing movement blur and affecting exposure!
 
tikigod19 said:
than reducing movement blur .....!
Click to expand...

Well you just mostly answered your question !

24/25p has a nice motion blur to it.It has that "film motion " The higher you set your shutterspeed well it starts to look like video.
Sometimes this causes a nice effect eg action scenes from movies like HEAT or Gladiotor.1/250th and up
Also using a high shutterspeed produces the best slowmo ..but you will need more light if your shooting inside.
Now when I shoot 60p which I rarely do I set my shutterspeed to 1/60th or 1/120th( set to 50 p that would be 1/50 th and 1/100th)
Drop the footage on a 24p timeline and usually it still has a 24p look to it ..that is the way objects ( everything/one) moves in the scene.
Also progressive frames interpolate way better with framerate changes....less geuss work like interlaced footage.

See if you can get your hands on an hmc 151 to test it out !
 
yeah i really want to get one to try out! Any voulenteers in essex, uk? :)

I really like the high shutter look on my current camera, I always referred to THAT as a film like look but someone else gave it another posh name... Do you know what that is? I found that setting my FX1 to something crazy like 1/1250 in bright sun light gave a sory of manic action like movement which suited me fine. Is that the 1/250'th gladiator style thing you mention?

Are there any examples of what youre talking about? I know what I want my footage to look like but dont know if its the slow shutter, the low frame rate, the high shutter or the progressive nature of the frames that does it!
 
ok i've watched this http://www.vimeo.com/16591534 and I think it is the HIGH shutter speed that I like... I therefore don't like the movie look it seems?!

I thought that look was kind of 'always there' with progressive footage but I guess I'm still going to have to have enough light to ramp the shutter up.

always learning... and getting more undecided on camera to buy...
 
Yeah that's a good example so good the music made me angry for no apparent reason :)

Dont know what your budget is but the HMC 150 has/is serving me well !


steadicamA.jpgMissSu.jpg
 
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Added some stills no CC. looks like Dvxuser is recompressing them :(. They are both sharper then what u see !
Especially the closeup.
 
i think really it all comes down to low light performance on the HMC150. I can probably live without auto audio controls but if the low light is considerably worse than the sony Z5 then I might take a hit and just pay the extra for that with the compact flash recording unit. I have 20+ compatible batteries from my FX1's so that would be a bonus. however the rolling shutter during camera flashes at a wedding is going to cause problems to that steers me back towards the Z5.

I'm just practising using my GH1 for video too as I think that will combine with the HMC150 well and if so then that may well be my pairing.

I really just need some hard proof that the HMC150 will be a noticeable step up in terms of low light when compared to the FX1 that I'm used to. In its day the FX1 was great in low light but I'm getting bored of having to use 12db or 15db gain at weddings and getting horrible resulting images!
 
This is an old one http://vimeo.com/2828771 One my first tests/edit with HMC 150.
Forgot what the F1/Z1 lowlight performance is like so I don't know how they compare.
The HMC 150 is CCD so no rolling shutter . The gain on the HMC 150 looks like grain.
But I suggests you get your hands on one to judge for yourself ...again, lol.
One thing though the HMC is not as sharp as other cameras I believe others have mentioned that the GH1 is sharper.....but implentantation of the codec in the HMC 150 is way better .

I should cut a new reel but abit busy:)
 
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So I just watched the link I posted . Vimeo recompressed the video again ... bummer ,
so its probably not the best example. The original is much cleaner and has no artifacts.
 
thanks for posting anyway, gives me a good idea.

My next issue is the AVCHD workflow for people. with the GH1 I've always just (sluggishly) edited but people are now talking about transcoding first...

Always learning! :)
 
oh, just out of interest. If I film 720p 50fps and mix it with 720p 25fps, should I edit on a 25fps or 50fps timeline?
 
25p because the other way around will, let say can cause some extra jerkiness in the end product !
And if you want slowmo it works best on a 25p timeline.

I've always trancoded with the free avchd to dvcprohd converter form Panny .
 
I did a couple of tests with some HMC150 720 50p footage slowing it down and although it was cars driving left to right (which is bound to cause some jitter) I must say I did notice quite bad jumping (about 3 skips every second or so). Do you think this will be better if I do it again on a 25p timeline then?

I also tested the quality of 1080 and 720 footage when the end product is a DVD (as 90% of my work is) and was amazed with the similarity in the footage. I probably couldnt tell them apart if I didnt know which was which so I think from now on I'm going to shoot 720p 50fps on both my GH1 and the HMC150. Therefore enabling slow mo smoothness whenever I need it.

Whether I'll lose the 'film look' that 25p would help with is still to be tested but I suppose with things like speeches and ceremony where I know there's going to be no slow mo I could just change them back to 720 25p. (I assume theres no point in filming 1080 25p and just downscaling the footage to a 720 timeline afterwards?)

Ok so just to confirm... shoot on 720 50p and edit on a 720 25p timeline and this will still give me nice smooth slow motion?

appreciate your help as always
 
tikigod19 said:
i did a couple of tests with some hmc150 720 50p footage slowing it down and although it was cars driving left to right (which is bound to cause some jitter) i must say i did notice quite bad jumping (about 3 skips every second or so). Do you think this will be better if i do it again on a 25p timeline then? yes for best result use 50p on a 25p timeline .your nle has more frames to do slowmo properly.

i also tested the quality of 1080 and 720 footage when the end product is a dvd (as 90% of my work is) and was amazed with the similarity in the footage. I probably couldnt tell them apart if i didnt know which was which so i think from now on i'm going to shoot 720p 50fps on both my gh1 and the hmc150. Therefore enabling slow mo smoothness whenever i need it.

Whether i'll lose the 'film look' that 25p would help with is still to be tested but i suppose with things like speeches and ceremony where i know there's going to be no slow mo i could just change them back to 720 25p. (i assume theres no point in filming 1080 25p and just downscaling the footage to a 720 timeline afterwards?)
there's no need for 1080p for sd but i shoot that anyways :) i got more to play with in post

ok so just to confirm... Shoot on 720 50p and edit on a 720 25p timeline and this will still give me nice smooth slow motion? yes

appreciate your help as always
Click to expand...

go
 
out of curiosity
is there a difference in filming in 25p
with filming in 50p and trash half frames in post so it conforms to 25p ?
 
You should be able to shoot 50P and pullout 25P without any comprimising. The question comes down to shutter speed you will be using (normally your shoot 1/50th for 25P and 1/100th for 50P) If you like the look of 1/100th then you are good to go if you prefer to have 1/50th then you might find your slow mo footage has a little too much motion blur.

In regards to pulling 24P from 60P footage, that is not recommended. You can't do an even pull down with those frame rates. In NTSC world you would have to shoot at 120FPS to do a 24P pulldown.
 
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