Demo'd a HPX300 today...

Ned,

You bring a great point regarding media management. I'm still in a tape-based workflow with clients that want tapes after the shoot is over with. I too like to go home and pop a beer as soon as possible. Media dumps = more time which I take into account hitting my bottom line.

Giuseppe - yes, my mind is officially blown.
 
nedcam said:
Giuseppe asks why I feel the 2700 locks me into P2:

The 2700 takes longer to pay for itself, thus locking me in to P2 and. The 300 will pay for itself in no time. If I got a 2700 I'd have to spend $13-$18,000 for a lens also.

I've had a lot of cameras and in terms of cost/profit, the little DVX100A, which this website is named for, made me the most money and only cost around $4000 when I bought it. The Dr. Phil Show would rent it for $1000 a week as a "house camera", staying in one position. I kept a spreadsheet of expenses on it v.s. revenue, it made a profit in 3 years of around $28,000!

So, if I sunk money into a 2700 + lens, and the HDV clients still want HDV, and the upper end folks want tape, and foreigners, news and east coast clients want XDCAM, a P2 camera will take much longer to not only break even, but make a profit. The 300 "locks" me into the P2 universe but will pay for itself soon, since it only cost $7400. I need something for the P2 requests so the 300 will work, as long as I don't think I will end up in a shooting situation where skew would show.

As a freelancer I often shoot only the Midwest or Chicago segment of an ongoing project, so the clients dictate which model based on what the other scenes were shot with elsewhere. Buying ANY upper end model does not make sense since I would need several of them, although I could swap the lenses.

But as I said in my post, I can't see P2 winning although if you have a closed loop production house it would work great. As it stands, since I started doing P2 (does P stand for Pain in the Ass?) I have given up many of my lunch breaks for data dumps, valuable time when I need to respond to clients via email, etc. and eat and rest. Also, when I get home I now have to do media dumps, buy drives if Best Buy is still open, get them to the client the next day somehow or pack it for Fed Ex, figure out which clients need to return drives, etc. Some clients take my P2 cards then I have to figure out how to get them back, which is a long drive usually. What a pain....I can see how P2 helps the post folks but it is a major set back for a freelance DP like me, when I want to have dinner and pop a beer, watch some TV, I am now having to mess with P2 footage that didn't get done during the shoot day...If XDCAM disc would please finally win I could hand the clients the discs at the end of the day just like I did for years with beta and HD tapes.

I know I communicated with you when I was considering which model and for awhile the skew scared me off, but I feel I have it under control. Clients who are also editors may see it more since they are pros looking at HD editing monitors, but for most of what I do I think the 300 will work, if it won't I'll rent a 2700 for $600. But the bottom line is I have to go which way I will make a profit and right now the Sony horse seems to be pulling ahead in the back stretch, at least in my market, so I would paint myself into a corner with a 2700 or 3700.

The final nail in P2 I think will come in the archival arena. What I mean is some of my clients who are P2 friendly are trying to figure out non-hard drive solutions for archiving the P2 project when complete. The solution: Blue Ray and other Sony disc record decks. So, if they buy the decks then accepting an XDCAM disc from their shooter will be a no brainer right? Then I can go back to the way things were: have a lunch break during the shoot day and go home at night, enjoy dinner and have some beer. No messing with P2 footage.

About 30% of my clients will be going to the airport at the end of the shoot day so I must give them what they are asking for.

Best regards,

Ned
Click to expand...

I wasn't the one who said you were locked in, I believe that was someone else, but I think everyone is used to me yapping my brains out, so its ok that you thought it was me haha :Drogar-Shock(DBG):

Lez said:
" I can hands down say that if you were shooting an action film handheld with tons of camera shake and explosions and you shot side by side with an HPX500 and 300, you would have wished you got 2 500's instead. You wouldnt have footage, you would have mush from the 300. "

As if your really going to shoot a feature on a 7k camera....

Ps ... I do earn my living with my creative.. be it shooting/editing etc...
Click to expand...

Why wouldnt you shoot a feature on a 7k camera??? I wont even get into how many valid responses I could give you to that. It was a hypothetical either way and my point was still standing that the footage would be mush.

ok fine... since my brain is in this mode I guess I'm forcing myself to give you an example of an action feature film that shot completely on a 8k camera...

"Merantau" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1368116/ Shot on HPX500's tons of action and movement

Here is the trailer, http://www.vimeo.com/4439506

Enjoy the action feature shot on an 8K camera. I can give more examples but I feel I would just be tooting my own horn a bit too much then. :engel017:
 
I can't imagine anyone in this economy wanting to buy a $10,000 deck for a XDCAM disk that will be irrelevant in five years.
 
All cool Giuseppe... will watch the trailer... sure it's great...

I'm lucky because I chose the format to shoot in for my clients.. if they don't like it they can get somebody else to shoot.. simple as that... they're hiring me and my creative and at this stage I'm happy shooting 720p..

Most of the issues I believe you are referring to is most problematic in 1080p...

Anyhow horses for courses... that's why everybody is in business... we generally all provide a similar product... it's just the ride can be different...

Cheers

PS... filmed with the 302 this morning doing an interview with Senator Rachel Siewert (oz senator).. and the footage is clean.. and certainly looks better going in with the 302 to a Senator than with my old 202...
and I think that's their market segment people who want a bit more than the 200...
 
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guidedbygbv said:
I can't imagine anyone in this economy wanting to buy a $10,000 deck for a XDCAM disk that will be irrelevant in five years.
Click to expand...


I really liked the idea of the XDCAM disk's, its a shame they cant get higher bitrates on them now. Maybe XDCAM will come back with higher bitrate disks, and make everyone happy again. The disks were only like 10-15bux each when buying a few at a time, and I would totally be happy with spending that kinda money to archive my footage and not have to keep re-writing over them all the time like you have to do with P2 or SxS.

oh well, but I agree XDCAM decks wont hold unless they drop the prices really low.
 
Giuseppe – Why is it a shame you can’t get more information on a Sony Optical disc – if you are talking about 50mbs 422 8bit? I was at a Sony training seminar that showed the new developments in optical disc technologies and they really are up to some clever stuff, time and demand will tell how well that will continue. However, at the end of the day, for the professional, it’s simply a case of choosing what’s right for your own workflow.

Sony XDCAM HD 422 & Panasonic AVC Intra Formats:

For the professional users over this side of the water, and those interested in such matters please read the EBU (European Broadcasting Union) technical report –
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_home.html
( choose “Digital Compression” > HDTV Production tests )

You will find that both AVC Intra at 100mbs and XDCAMHD422 at 50mbs, have passed stringent testing using procedures set down by the EBU, and that both formats are the "minimum requirement" for general purpose HD productions. Neither codec is viewed as being “better”

Sony has chosen one method while Panasonic another. Both companies know exactly what they are doing and both manufacture industry approved equipment to suit different needs within different working practices.

Hope some folks find that review informative…

Best: Stu
www.studioscotland.com
 
nedcam said:
Giuseppe asks why I feel the 2700 locks me into P2:

The 2700 takes longer to pay for itself, thus locking me in to P2 and. The 300 will pay for itself in no time. If I got a 2700 I'd have to spend $13-$18,000 for a lens also.

I've had a lot of cameras and in terms of cost/profit, the little DVX100A, which this website is named for, made me the most money and only cost around $4000 when I bought it. The Dr. Phil Show would rent it for $1000 a week as a "house camera", staying in one position. I kept a spreadsheet of expenses on it v.s. revenue, it made a profit in 3 years of around $28,000!

So, if I sunk money into a 2700 + lens, and the HDV clients still want HDV, and the upper end folks want tape, and foreigners, news and east coast clients want XDCAM, a P2 camera will take much longer to not only break even, but make a profit. The 300 "locks" me into the P2 universe but will pay for itself soon, since it only cost $7400. I need something for the P2 requests so the 300 will work, as long as I don't think I will end up in a shooting situation where skew would show.

As a freelancer I often shoot only the Midwest or Chicago segment of an ongoing project, so the clients dictate which model based on what the other scenes were shot with elsewhere. Buying ANY upper end model does not make sense since I would need several of them, although I could swap the lenses.

But as I said in my post, I can't see P2 winning although if you have a closed loop production house it would work great. As it stands, since I started doing P2 (does P stand for Pain in the Ass?) I have given up many of my lunch breaks for data dumps, valuable time when I need to respond to clients via email, etc. and eat and rest. Also, when I get home I now have to do media dumps, buy drives if Best Buy is still open, get them to the client the next day somehow or pack it for Fed Ex, figure out which clients need to return drives, etc. Some clients take my P2 cards then I have to figure out how to get them back, which is a long drive usually. What a pain....I can see how P2 helps the post folks but it is a major set back for a freelance DP like me, when I want to have dinner and pop a beer, watch some TV, I am now having to mess with P2 footage that didn't get done during the shoot day...If XDCAM disc would please finally win I could hand the clients the discs at the end of the day just like I did for years with beta and HD tapes.

I know I communicated with you when I was considering which model and for awhile the skew scared me off, but I feel I have it under control. Clients who are also editors may see it more since they are pros looking at HD editing monitors, but for most of what I do I think the 300 will work, if it won't I'll rent a 2700 for $600. But the bottom line is I have to go which way I will make a profit and right now the Sony horse seems to be pulling ahead in the back stretch, at least in my market, so I would paint myself into a corner with a 2700 or 3700.

The final nail in P2 I think will come in the archival arena. What I mean is some of my clients who are P2 friendly are trying to figure out non-hard drive solutions for archiving the P2 project when complete. The solution: Blue Ray and other Sony disc record decks. So, if they buy the decks then accepting an XDCAM disc from their shooter will be a no brainer right? Then I can go back to the way things were: have a lunch break during the shoot day and go home at night, enjoy dinner and have some beer. No messing with P2 footage.

About 30% of my clients will be going to the airport at the end of the shoot day so I must give them what they are asking for.

Best regards,

Ned
Click to expand...

ned/giuseppe and all who have responded-

very helpful thread for all us lurkers thinking the same thought, "which camera to buy".

ned, your insights as to how a camera earns u a day's pay is helpful. i find myself getting caught up in a project only to realize how tight the margins can be.

giuseppe, your thoughts on the use of nanoflash is exactly in line with my own research.

i just wanted to thank u both for added information to this conversation.

i did want to ask ned-why the hpx300 over the sony ex1/3? form factor? customer wow?

lastly, tommygunn, i'm also on the fence and with the rebate finished tomw...well...we all live by our decisions.

good luck to u and perhaps by sunday/november 1st u can share with us what your "final" decision was.

be well

rob
 
Just to add we have two 301's now and a 2700 on order, I chose P2 and AVC intra 100 6 months ago as it ticked all the BBC and EBU spec boxes and have been very happy with the two 301's.

In adding the 2700 we will have a main 2/3" broadcast camera too but can use the 301's as B cameras, with all the media on the same card format at the same bit rates it makes post prod workflow very smooth to final cut pro and pro tools.

I have used sony kit for nearly 30 years but feel that the system approach with P2 is very good for our set-up.
 
The rebate ends, but the financing has been extended to the end of the year.

Just shot an industrial with the 300. Interviews and B-roll with a decent amount of action footage. It looked great. Showed the edited piece using an HD projector on a large screen. Skew was not an issue. Loved the LCD monitor. very crisp. P2 workflow still scares me.
 
JC,

Where do you see the financing option has been extended? If I decide to purchase one, I was going for the 25% down, and 0% for 24 mo. option. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

But if extended until Dec. 31, I can mull it over a little longer.
 
robfilms said:
ned/giuseppe and all who have responded-

very helpful thread for all us lurkers thinking the same thought, "which camera to buy".

ned, your insights as to how a camera earns u a day's pay is helpful. i find myself getting caught up in a project only to realize how tight the margins can be.

giuseppe, your thoughts on the use of nanoflash is exactly in line with my own research.

i just wanted to thank u both for added information to this conversation.

i did want to ask ned-why the hpx300 over the sony ex1/3? form factor? customer wow?

lastly, tommygunn, i'm also on the fence and with the rebate finished tomw...well...we all live by our decisions.

good luck to u and perhaps by sunday/november 1st u can share with us what your "final" decision was.

be well

rob
Click to expand...

You're welcome, and again I hope we didn't boggle your mind too much, we all come from the same feelings I believe... wanting to help others not get into the same trouble we do when picking cameras haha
 
Ned here:

• Different regions have different manufacturer affinities. Chicago had always been "Sony friendly" yet my east coast counterparts all bought Ikegami in the beta days. Reason: when NBC had massive layoffs, for the first time in broadcast history (I think late '80s?), all the shooters (who they call Photogs) were let go BUT hired back as freelance. So they naturally bought, with their generous union buyouts, what NBC was using: Ikegami. That's why Roger Macie (www.broadcastvideo.com) the preeminent repair facility on the east coast, was always Ikegami centric (till lately). NY clients would call me and want Ike whereas all us Chicago DPs had gone Sony D600, like the LA crowd.

So..you ask why I ruled out the EX family: Chicago seems to me to now be more Panasonic centric because all the former Sony D600 owners went Panasonic Varicam, especially the sports guys who live off ESPN, which requested Varicam (and now HDX900) specifically. Sony fell asleep at the wheel and let Pany gain market share, they were slow to move towards cards. I think they lived off the popularity of the HDV crowd digging the Z1U, few could afford the F900. (On Monday I am shooting for HBO's Gangland doing a reenactment of a shoot out. The company OWNS their own F900. In Chicago I only know of one guy who could afford his own F900, only big companies could afford them.) So although I have been a Sony Man all my life, like I am a Chevy Man (Suburban), I had to reluctantly jump ship.

I tried the EX3 at a trade show and since about half my work is handheld I had to reject it. I have heard scuttlebutt that at the next NAB, Sony will have a 300 killer, (perhaps they'll call it a EX5?) that will be shoulder mounted EX3. But there's another very important reason I went P2....

I study clients, I learn their behavior patterns. I know how to read them over the phone and when I get to know them in person I peel their onion (including why they chose me, what they liked about my site, cost factors, which references they called, etc.). On this forum we all get hung up on tech so I don't know how many of you will understand the next point. It depends how many years you've been doing this...Here's an example of the point I am about to make: today I shot an outdoor fashion show on Chicago's Michigan Ave. It was a call from one of NY's largest, hippest, energetic, interactive agencies. It was from a very YOUNG PR woman and she wanted me to shoot "digital". I drilled down, she got back and said "HD". I asked to speak to their editors but no, they just want to capture the "event", no post. OK, that means I have free rein! BUT, and here's the point, nowadays instead of "digital" many say "P2". All of us know there is no such thing as a "P2" camera, there's around ten or so models of P2. And that is the same exact thing I have seen with other formats, they ask for the FORMAT, like "We need you to shoot in DVCAM". Summary: clients are calling and saying P2, perhaps because their editor told them to find "a DP with P2". I have yet to have someone call and say "SxS" or EX, although Brits, Aussies and Kiwis have asked for EXs due to PAL, which is the only time I used one. My theory is that Sony was first to push cheap PAL cameras so the British Empire went that way, correct? Just a theory...

The other reason I ruled out EX3- I thought perhaps going 1/2" would be better than 1/3rd (I come from 2/3" world), so I took my calculator and concluded the difference would only be 17%, correct? Worst case I'd get into the hassle of DoF adapters. Then another reason: I thought "Damn, that HVX200 has, and still is SO POPULAR, and I have lost jobs to it, the 300 is a beefed up 200!" Look at the number of people viewing the HVX200 forum at any one time!

Here's yet another observation: I hire a LOT of guys in their twenties, usually young grips or PAs but they are now coming out of school as Renaissance Men, capable of doing "everything" (or so they think). Around six or so years ago the HVX200 came out and was revolutionary, took ALL the film schools by storm like Final Cut did. It allowed poor people who could not afford decks to go HD by sliding the card into a Mac laptop. Schools bought them by the THOUSANDS. So now, even the greenest PA I hire to order lunch, OWNS his own P2 cards and can download media for me or rent me his cards. I tell the guys to bring their P2 cards and if I need to rent them I'll pay them! It's like having an extra case of tapes at all times, very reassuring. Many got a HVX200 as a graduation gift and are very familiar with the Pany MENU STRUCTURE (very important!). Had I gone SxS with Sony there would be a learning curve...

FLASH BACK!!!! In my film days I bought the "better", but not the most "popular" camera, the French 16mm Aaton whereas all my Chicago brethren bought the more ubquitous Arriflex 16mm SR. I learned the hard way you MUST ALWAYS buy the most popular (for your area) model, rather than the "best". Reason: all the crew will know the popular model inside and out, plus all the accessories (like underwater housing) will be made for the most popular model. I had to sweet talk clients, who had a COMFORT FACTOR with Arriflex, into an Aaton. It is always a hard sell. Presently in Chicago P2 is the most popular tapeless HD format and NON-TECHNICAL clients are familiar with it (remember Comfort Factor?), although most clients are still afraid of tapeless and don't trust hard drives.

Well guys, I'm a hunt and pecker type of typist so the above represents a lot of work. I had an incredible experience today that I will share when I have time regarding skew. I was in a space of maybe 100 yards by 80 yards, surrounded by office buildings perhaps 60 stories high, and was swish panning around during the aforementioned fashion show because they wanted "energy". I studied when the skew (720/30P no shutter) was noticeable to the TYPICAL VIEWER (not an editor), and slowed down or zoomed in, to avoid it. The grid pattern of office buildings plus vertical light poles made for a skew nightmare so I tricked the 300, usually by putting a very hot babe in frame! Also, there was a side tent where a still guy was shooting people with flash on green screen, so I decided to put the 300 to the flash band cure test, and out of maybe 20 flashes, only one was noticeably objectionable as a horizontal weird band. I believe it's related to focal length so I stayed waist up after I noticed it.

And I did a freebie charity night candle walk a couple of weeks ago in +6db with the firmware upgrade (but not the new scene files from Pany), I will post it and I didn't see any objectionable noise for the TYPICAL VIEWER. If you guys are sitting in dark editing rooms with a $10,000 HD monitor and looking for problems you will definitely find them, but unless it's a network job ala HBO or Nat Geo, or projecting at a Fortune 100 convention, I personally am shooting for the "typical viewer", and the 300 will handle 80% of it.

I do have some issues, but I don't want to make them public, you'll have to email me personally. But overall, thus far, for under $8K I can't complain. This camera is here to put food on my family's table, not make the best God damn image technically possible! For that I would need to cough up another $25,000. It's just another tool for a master craftsman. Think of it that way. Plus, it's temporary, as is P2...

Later,

Ned

P.S. Being shallow and superficial, I have always felt using prosumer cameras lacked a "Wow" factor for clients. When I would pimp out my HDX100A with radio mics, shoulder mount, shotgun mic, Litepanel, wide angle, zoom motor, etc. (all unneccesary) and it would be on the kitchen floor the night before a shoot, my wife said it looked like the Lunar Rover. That was my attempt to wow the clients when I arrived. The 300 looks and feels like a pro unit, whereas the EX3 to me still looks like a Lunar Rover. But...today proved it, on crowded city sidewalks I could really track my focus with an adult lens like the 300 has, with my eye firmly sealed in Ira Raider's Icuff on the left side of the camera. I did not get that feel from a EX3, but if you're more of a tripod shooter that wouldn't matter.
 
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Played with the 300 again yesterday, still very unsure. The guys at B&H showed me some test footage they made shooting down the street. The skew took vertical lines (trees/buildings/posts/etc) and skewed them at least 25 degrees. I still don't see how anyone can use this camera?!?
 
They use it in the same way that every other rolling shutter camera gets used... if you don't like rolling shutter, you don't like rolling shutter.

The HPX300 has more skew than some other pro cams when in 1080/24p mode, and a LOT less skew than the other cams when in 720/24p or when in 60i/60p mode. If you're finding bending lines to be problematical for the way you want to shoot, even in 60i/60p modes, then you are not a good candidate for any rolling shutter camera and you should stick to CCDs.
 
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REGARDING SKEW: Have had the 300 for about a month now, half the time run and gun, the other half controlled. What I noticed about skew is that it seems to show more on telephoto and mainly seems to be the verticals in the BACKGROUND. Why, I don't know, perhaps it has to do with the distance? B&H counter guys can make it skew like a mutha, but an experienced pro can "tame" the skew by learning when it will occur. Also, salesmen may want to steer you to more profitable (for them) models like an EX3 or JVC700???

Here's the important point: I've noticed the types of shots, or part of the shot, where the skew is most pronounced, is usually the "garbage" or out take part of the shot that the editor wouldn't want anyway. It's before I "settle" and have panned too fast. Whenever I get a chance, even in fast documentary mode, I practice the shot before rolling. Reason: I want to test my focus pull and possibly rack exposure without the clients and editors seeing my errors and me doing a second take. I have always done this because coming from a film background, which was ungodly expensive compared to video, this is the standard practice of being trained. Even in cinema verite mode every time the camera is not rolling I am looking through the viewfinder checking the window's zebras, an African American in a white shirt, etc. all the problem areas.

If I have absolutely no way to rehearse I handle the documentary situation SLOWER, so if I have to subliminally adjust focus, exposure, etc. the viewer won't notice (hopefully). So now that I am a 300 CMOS camera owner I have had to add SKEW to the above pre-shot check list, and if I'm thrown into a cinema verite situation and have to roll immediately I now study the VERTICALS in the background. Recently I shot exteriors and on wide diagonal tilt/pans of surrounding office buildings I saw at exactly what speed skew occurred. I slowed down a skosh and NO SKEW! There are sweet spots in different situations where the skew is avoidable! It also helped I was shooting a fashion show and had babes in the foreground.

That's another thing, the viewer is watching what we are directing their eyes towards. All red blooded males not in the video production biz will be watching the fashion models, not studying if there is a slight bend in background verticals. I have only seen skew in the background so far, usually when I am rehearsing my angles and swish panning (which an editor won't use unless it's MTV style), and then I slow the pan speed down a skosh. You will actually notice a certain point when skew occurs and then you'll just slow the pan a bit.

I have noticed it's worse if the shutter is in play. It seems more pronounced in the viewfinder than in post for some reason.

Since most of my jobs lately are for the web I have been 720/30P and I have found it hard to create skew in regular shooting style. If I am tracking something moving in frame there doesn't seem to be skew in the background, just like the Panasonic go kart sample. If you are shooting for gonzo MTV style Monkey Cam™ clients then you will be better off with a HPX170 or 500, although those kinds of clients may get off on skew...

There's the Woman Test I use re: noise, audio levels, (now Skew), etc. My mom (76), wife (50) and daughter (22), they watch on the Apple Cinema Display or Panasonic HD monitor and I then ask them how'd they like it: "Great, Fine". Then I rewind, show it again and point stuff out like noise in dark areas, chromatic aberration, flare, slight skew, etc. and 99.99% of the time they say they would have never ever noticed it. I did this a lot with skew and noise when I was testing the 300 when considering it. My point is you and I notice this stuff. If I know my client is an editor I am much more careful however...

It's only a month so perhaps I will come across worse skew scenarios and maybe we should have a site on Vimeo where we compare skew situations? If I aim on an office building's windows on telephoto and swish back and forth it WILL skew, but if you are experienced you can control it. Just like we all learned to slow down pans when 24P was invented, we now have to watch for skew because it seems like CMOS is the future of camera imaging.

And as I've mentioned in previous posts the 300 is the only choice I had for a true shoulder mount, AVCIntra, P2, adult lens unit without spending $35,000 (I include lens, tax and interest payments!). I've got to learn to make it sing and pay for itself before the next best thing comes along, probably at NAB 2010. I shot for History Channel Monday and they demanded the Sony F900, Nova this Sunday wants the Panasonic HDX900, it's the mid and low range budget clients who will get the 300 and they won't notice any skew because I now know how to control it. Now I need to work on the depth of field issue...

Later,

Ned
 
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Ned-
That's the second reference you've made to NAB 2010 and the Sony "300 killer". For those of us who've been out of the loop, do you care to share your source(s)?
 
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