Demo'd a HPX300 today...

T

tommygunn

Active member
I have been wanting this camera so bad ever since I saw it at NAB. The shoulder mount, codecs, battery life, and price point are absolutely ideal for the docs and live events that I do. Today I finally had a few hours to spare and really work the camera at B&H in NYC. Going in I knew there were rolling shutter issues, but I wanted to really work the camera before I made any kind of purchase. I have been reading this forum for while and decided to join to share my HPX300 experience with all of you.

I was absolutely shocked at the amount of wobble/jello-vision that I was able to see with this camera! I mean, I don't see how anyone can use this camera!??! The wobble is very, very bad. I want/wanted this camera soooooo bad. I was just so dissapointed.

Please send your condolences. :embarasse
 
I would also like to add...

The skew is very apparent in the viewfinder. However, I didn't really notice it in the LCD monitor or monitor output. Any thoughts on this one?
 
The skew seen in the viewfinder is not what the camera
records. It is part of the LCOS viewfinder. Dont know if
its part of the LCOS technology generaly.
 
I agree what you see in the viewfinder is not what the camera records, I have had the 301 for 6 months now and I do not find the skew to be a problem.
 
I still find the skew to be a problem regardless if its exaggerated in VF or not, skew is still skew, even a little tiny itsy bit can ruin a great shot needed to be handed in to a paying client. I have stuck with CCD's no CMOS for me, I like jello but not in my footage.
 
I'm just so torn. Aside from the JVC 700 series, there's really not much else out there with a similar form factor in this price range.
 
The fact is, there are trade-offs with every camera - even those costing multi-tens-of-thousands of dollars. The question is, can you work around and/or live with them? My answer for the 300 is a very enthusiastic "yes" due to the incredibly high quality footage it can take. To get AVC-Intra 100Mbps footage before this camera would have set me back over $20,000. I paid about $7,000 for my 300 (including the rebate and incentives) so it was a no-brainer. I've also learned how to shoot with it over the past couple of months such that the skew is a very minor - if any - issue for me.

For what it's worth, the JVC HM700 was the other camera I was seriously considering and the footage it took absolutely paled in comparison to the 300's 1080p AVC-Intra 100. In my view, the JVC 700 is also barely a "professional" camera. What do I mean by that? It's too light on the shoulder, poorly balanced and not very durable. I speak from experience on the durable part having used 3 GY-HD110s for 2 years. We had to send all of them in for service at one time or another - one time because the top handle came loose (!!!) and could only be repaired by taking the entire camera apart and tightening the screws. The other major issue came with the skimpy power adapter. The 700 has solved that one by using a professional 4-pin interface, but the JVCs just aren't as durable. Finally, I don't like the idea of entrusting my valuable footage to SDHC cards. I've had too many friends with digital still cameras suffer a "corrupt" card resulting in losing shots. Not to say that can't happen with P2 as well - but I feel better about their durability and proven track record.

Finally - just as food for thought - the ABC affiliate here in Denver (KMGH-TV, www.thedenverchannel.com) just purchased a dozen or so HPX-300s and is using them every day for ENG/EFP work. I actually spoke to one of their shooters yesterday on a fire scene (the FD is one of my clients) and asked him how they're liking shooting with the 300. Not known for pulling punches - especially about gear - this photog said he loves the camera and the quality it puts out. He also said he was aware of the skew issue but it hasn't been a problem for him or any of their other shooters since they know how to shoot with it.
 
yadda yadda... it's $7k for you guy's... what else you going to get at that price point...

I only shoot 720p and have not noticed any real issues and I've taken this camera to all sorts of locations now.. from events with flashes everywhere to freezing snow conditions...

It's a tricky little camera to set up as you like it.. but once you get use to it.. you will like it...

I've shot 2 camera shoots with the HPX500 and the Sony EX3 and the 300 blows them away...

Cheers
 
I can settle it for you but best to private message me, or call. I am assuming you are a freelance shooter and my opinion is that of a freelance DP (33 years) so my perspective is different than a lot of shooters on dvxuser, many who are DP hybrids like: Shooter/Editor, Production Company Owner/Shooter, Producer/Shooter, Auteur/Shooter, Independently Wealthy/Shooter, etc. Me, I'm a freelance shooter with a smattering of producing gigs here and there. My niche is servicing as many calls as possible, from a diverse client base, having to shoot in all kinds of situations and satisfy as many format requests as I can, in all budget levels. I have survived because my client base is very diversified and thus came to the conclusion that the 300 will handle most of the low and mid budget P2 clients, it will definitely NOT handle the top end clients in a real documentary situation where I have less control of the lighting situation, framing, etc. or those who need the interview look of a 2/3" camera, like Nova, etc.

Until recently the biz model was you'd get the best, most popular camera there is and everyone would call you. For seven years it was the Sony betacam D600, then the Varicam. Not any more. The God damn format wars have made it impossible. So I see the 300 as handling the crowd who normally would want a HPX170 or HVX200 and are loving P2. These clients don't have the budgets for 2700s anyway. I'm trying to get the HDV clients to accept a hard drive at the end of the day but they are resistant thus far. The great majority of clients are STILL afraid of tapeless, afraid of mxf, although if I could offer them QuickTime files I'm sure they'd be more willing. Much depends on their editor's opinion and experience.

The HPX300: I agonized for months, read every post, privately emailed every owner, tested the hell out of it, rejected it several times and yet... ended up buying it. I really have no choice as a freelance DP right now, I consider the P2 format an INTERIM format, so there's no sense buying the higher end 2700 or 3700 even though I can afford it. Reason: the big clients like Discovery, Hist Chan, Nat Geo, etc dictate which camera they want me to use, plus the settings. Most of them, especially out-of-towners do NOT want tapeless: they won't pay for a P2 Wrangler, they don't want near total strangers in charge of their footage's safety, they won't take the time for a data dump, they don't trust hard drives. The environment often doesn't allow for AC power and handling laptops and hard drives. The big dogs request the HDX900 or Sony F900 but I wouldn't buy them now because tapeless is here, and way too many calls are now coming in for Sony disc XDCAM, mainly from the east coast and foreigners, who being PAL have a history with Sony. They are more willing to accept a disc in hand, which reminds them of the security of tape, than a hard drive. This is why I see Sony winning in the long term.

So buying a 300 is my way of satisfying the low/mid-budget P2 requests which would have normally caused me to use a HVX200 or HPX170, but like you I do a lot of documentary style shooting so I needed something on my shoulder (I'm done with shoulder mounts!) and a lens with a little more reach. Also, editors have requested AVCintra. I can easily rent a 2700 or 3700 for clients with a decent budget.

During my tests I went out of my way to create skew and in a weird way that taught me how to avoid it, but if you shoot a lot of sports, car racing or wildlife that moves quick, this is NOT a good camera. This camera is PERFECT for shooters who can control their situation, it's absolutely phenomenal for it's price point under controlled situations. The samples you see posted on Vimeo attest to how great it is under CONTROLLED situations. When I was doing my research it really bugged me how most of the samples are landscape, still life, etc. Everyone can make even a cheap camera look good with God as your gaffer, but I needed to see how it would perform in the real world and so I borrowed one and ran it into the ground, but it turned me around and I bought it!

I have had several torture tests with it lately. Just shot a fire dept burning a house down, some from the inside for TruTv and it worked really well. It got soaked with the fire house, almost melted, I assumed I destroyed it, yet kept ticking. Like all cameras under 20K it's hard to use the color VF quickly for judging exposure and the Panasonic zebras aren't as easy to read as the Sony system, but that's one of the trade offs going Pany and this price level of a camera. I tried making the VF B&W like real pros but the Panasonic zebra situation...ugh, you CSS (can't see shi*) with 2 sets of zebras (70+100IRE) in B&W.

Yesterday I shot a big time CEO on green screen and it is perfect for that, but then I did b-roll: it's much better than a HPX170 or HVX200 but nowhere near as good as a 500 or 2700. And this gets me back to my main point: the 500 is too long in the tooth to buy now and the 2700 locks you into producing a profit in ONLY the P2 universe, which is limited. I have seen this movie before: a format comes along and generates tremendous excitement, but then the herd moves on to the next cheaper/quicker/better thing. I have seen great DPs go broke making the wrong equipment decision.

The thing that has me MOST concerned about skew is that clients will see my RAW footage, where I am hunting for shots and zoomed in tight to grab my focus, and that's where they'll see JelloVision™ as I whip the camera around looking for a shot, until I "settle". Especially with P2 I tend to keep the camera rolling so they won't have a zillion clips. They may think something is wrong with my camera when they see skew, but I will make sure I "settle" before the good stuff begins. A younger editor pointed out to me that skew in the outtakes portions of the shots will be the new normal, as more cameras become CMOS.

So, my position is if you don't have a lot of client requests for being at full telephoto and swishing around cinema-verite style in 1080/24P, this camera is better than a 170 and doesn't require the longer payback period of a 2700 with decent glass. In the Chicago corporate video scene, as differentiated from my TV show client base, the 300 will handle maybe 75% of all requests, although it is hard to throw the background out of focus in 1/3 and I don't get the time to play with DoF adaptors on my type of shooting schedules. So when I have the power to pick the talking head environment I will go for the longest distance I can get from the subject.

My website is below my name here, email me if you need further details. I am very disappointed with the lens but then I remind myself of the price I paid! Breathes pretty badly. CAC doesn't get rid of all the CA, and it does bloom. I wouldn't mind buying more lenses for it but I am paranoid of setting back focus in HD when we're running at full speed and sometimes don't have a monitor handy. Wide angle adapters: I wouldn't trust the CA situation. When a call comes in and I sense they need the best quality I will factor in a high end camera rental, but if I figure the 300 will satisfy them, great! After all, the budgets are way down and I am competing against a horde of cheap shooters. I like the HPX 170 but there is a very valuable business factor in pulling an impressive looking camera out of a pro bag upon arrival, especially after pimping it out. The clients go, "wow"... I know it's BS but believe me, it's important.

So don't worry about skew, worry about how you can make the most profit so you can survive and buy the next best thing, which I am sure will have to be disc based XDCAM because the top end clients are not into taking time to data dump and they don't trust hard drives.

Good luck,

Ned
www.nedmiller.com

P.S. You only have a few days to get in on the great Panasonic Financing deal, call Kari Hess at Abel Cine in Oak Brook Terrace, IL. That's how I did it, 25% down, two years same as cash.
 
I think there is something that everyone is missing here and it might be what changes your mind about a lot of different camera options...

NanoFlash recorder is an HD-SDI device that records native ProRes quicktime with 4:2:2 color and 10bit 220mbit/s data rate and I frame recording. That is 2x AVC I data rate for P2. It records onto High end (but cheap 80-150 bux) CF cards that are accepted and you can even afford to give them to your higher end clients instead of writing over them all the time.

The reason I bring this up is.... ANY CAMERA with an HD-SDI out just became an option to shoot 4:2:2 10bit with a tape AND tapless recording.

I bring this to the table... And older Varicam just became new again. Say the heads are even GONE and need complete replacement of the tape heads. Thats very expensive and most people wouldn't bother to fix it if they went tapless. Well now that camera goes on ebay for 10k or a little more... Guess what that just became an AMAZING deal with a NanoFlash recorder. You now have a tapless 10bit 422 I frame 220mbit super camera with images to die for... all for around 13k

OR

You hate the idea of limiting yourself to CMOS issues (like me) and you dont have the budget to get anything on the high end, but dont like the idea of shooting 720p only on a varicam you want 1080p just like everyone else... well guess what, the HM700 has a standard HD-SDI out. The HM700 is around 6.5k street price, add a NanoFlash for 3k and for the same price as the HPX300 with a few p2 cards and batteries, you just got something that shoots the same format with CCD chips and better bit rate. Now the HM700 chips are native 720p offset to get 1080p the image isnt as sharp as a native 1080p chip, but you have to understand its not the chip size you worry about, its the end result. So now that statement of "well its only 35mbit, and its shooting to cheap SD cards is now gone, and you have a very nice option for competing with the HPX300.

ORRRR

You have diverse clients that want different things, some want tape, some want hard drive, some want cards. Yet again you can take a Tape bassed camera like the HDX900 and capture Tape AND out of the HD-SDI capture a high quality quicktime file at 10bit 422 220mbit. Now THAT is a powerful combination. You now have a tape for the client who wants tape, You can offer them peace of mind, as well as a 422 quicktime file to boot, just in case you feel like swaying them to the tapless root. They will be safe to know you have a backup of tape and a HQ master all at the same time.


ORRRRRR

Same idea above but with a JVC HD200 or HD250. You get a tape master, and a 422 220mbit quicktime at the same time for under 8k. You get CCD 720p NATIVE chips (which are great looking) and even a 1080i camera now. And you still have comfort that its all backed up via tape at the same time.


Point is, dont lock yourself to just what the camera outputs from its tape or p2 or SxS or SD cards, if it has HD-SDI, you now have a killer option. Don't just lock yourself into something right away without exploring the fun things you can do with this new NanoFlash or other similar type HD-SDI recorders. They open up a whole new world to footage from cameras that were obsolete in terms of tape, and compression.


And just to put my personal opinion out there about the 300 yet again... Great images if you ONLY shoot green screen locked down, or super still images. Other than that, its un-usable for me. I have way too many clients with needs other than a tripod locked off. What Cinematographer or Videographer in their right mind have someone else tell them - HEY you cant move the camera like that, or HEY you cant follow that motion. Nope not me, thats for sure. CCD's all the way. HPX500 with a NanoFlash is by the way what we are shooting our next feature film with 2/3'' Anamorphic adapter by canon, and 2/3'' Fuji primes.

Dont lock yourself down to just one idea, keep your minds open, and search around, there are huge amounts of information out there for alternative ways to get much better quality if you just look.
 
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Giuseppe Pugliese said:
I
NanoFlash recorder is an HD-SDI device that records native ProRes quicktime with 4:2:2 color and 10bit 220mbit/s data rate and I frame recording.
Click to expand...

Nanoflash records MPEG2 and 8-bit, you might have confused it with the (less portable) Ki pro which records prores
 
Lez said:
yadda yadda... it's $7k for you guy's... what else you going to get at that price point...

I only shoot 720p and have not noticed any real issues and I've taken this camera to all sorts of locations now.. from events with flashes everywhere to freezing snow conditions...

It's a tricky little camera to set up as you like it.. but once you get use to it.. you will like it...

I've shot 2 camera shoots with the HPX500 and the Sony EX3 and the 300 blows them away...

Cheers
Click to expand...


I think you are completely missing the point and to say "its $7k" shows you really dont understand what the delema is. No one wants to spend $7k on a camera that still limits them, just because its a cheaper camera doest make it right for you to be limited. And just because YOU personally shot with it and like it over 2 other cameras, doesnt mean that the world shoots like you. I can hands down say that if you were shooting an action film handheld with tons of camera shake and explosions and you shot side by side with an HPX500 and 300, you would have wished you got 2 500's instead. You wouldnt have footage, you would have mush from the 300.

People shoot different footage, some even within 2 days can go from a music video on green screen, to a handheld fast paced reality shoot. It just isnt right to go by what 1 person says, I am trying to speak for the people who move their cameras OR people who don't just shoot the same locked off shots every day. Why would you want to limit your motion ever? Maybe I am old school but if this is what shooting has come to, people being ok with footage that goes sideways or not moving the camera or going telephoto, then I wouldn't want to be part of it anymore.

why settle just because you say "oh its only 7k"? how about someone gives me 7k and I will gladly buy an HPX300 with it and keep it for myself. It's their money and right now if you haven't noticed, money is hard to make lately. Some of these people on her depend on their camers to make money for rent, mortgage payments, food, insurance payments...:furious3:
 
PDR said:
Nanoflash records MPEG2 and 8-bit, you might have confused it with the (less portable) Ki pro which records prores
Click to expand...

It might be 8bit but I am checking right now, I am pretty sure the new one is 10bit

but its not MPEG2 limited, its a ton of different formats:

COPIED FROM THEIR SITE:

Highlights

  • Ultra-compact, camcorder mountable, 7.5W active / 0.2 W Standby
  • Comprehensive Digital I/O: HD/SD-SDI and HDMI: 1080i, 1080p, 1080psf, 720p, 480/576i
  • Utilizes Affordable Compact Flash Media(32GB = $150 US)
  • *** Now with Analog Audio Input (3.5 mm Unbalanced Stereo or Balanced Mono), Analog Output (3.5 mm Headphone)
  • .MOV, .MXF, .MPG, .M2V File Formats
Selectable Quality / Record Rates

  • Master Quality - I-Frame Only : 160/220 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame Full-Raster
  • Master Quality - Long GOP : 100/140/160 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP Full-Raster
  • Broadcast TV Mode: 50 Mbps 4:2:2 Long-GOP Full-Raster
  • Proxy Mode: 19 Mbps 4:2:0 Long-GOP 1440x1080
 
PDR said:
The "formats" are just wrappers (containers). It's MPEG2 8-bit. This was confirmed in their forum.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-flash-xdr/466148-nanoflash-versus-competition.html
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/convergent-design-flash-xdr/466509-just-mpeg-2-a.html

But you're completely right about this opening up other options, which is great
Click to expand...


I just checked on their site in their FAQ's and they have this:

Using one Transcend 32 GB 133x CompactFlash cards, the approximate recording
time is:
Video
Format
720p50@
50 Mbps
1080i60 @
50Mbps
1080i60 @
100 Mbps
1080p24 4:2:2
10-bit
Uncompressed
Record Time
71 minutes
71 minutes 35 Minutes 17

I know the format is screwed up for this text but it clearly shows that it says 1080p24 4:2:2
10-bit
Uncompressed
and it can shoot 17mins of that.

It is MPEG2 and not ProRes (got the 2 confused) but its the same quality and you get a native .MOV out of it, so there really isnt a difference in quality at all.
 
Giuseppe asks why I feel the 2700 locks me into P2:

The 2700 takes longer to pay for itself, thus locking me in to P2 and. The 300 will pay for itself in no time. If I got a 2700 I'd have to spend $13-$18,000 for a lens also.

I've had a lot of cameras and in terms of cost/profit, the little DVX100A, which this website is named for, made me the most money and only cost around $4000 when I bought it. The Dr. Phil Show would rent it for $1000 a week as a "house camera", staying in one position. I kept a spreadsheet of expenses on it v.s. revenue, it made a profit in 3 years of around $28,000!

So, if I sunk money into a 2700 + lens, and the HDV clients still want HDV, and the upper end folks want tape, and foreigners, news and east coast clients want XDCAM, a P2 camera will take much longer to not only break even, but make a profit. The 300 "locks" me into the P2 universe but will pay for itself soon, since it only cost $7400. I need something for the P2 requests so the 300 will work, as long as I don't think I will end up in a shooting situation where skew would show.

As a freelancer I often shoot only the Midwest or Chicago segment of an ongoing project, so the clients dictate which model based on what the other scenes were shot with elsewhere. Buying ANY upper end model does not make sense since I would need several of them, although I could swap the lenses.

But as I said in my post, I can't see P2 winning although if you have a closed loop production house it would work great. As it stands, since I started doing P2 (does P stand for Pain in the Ass?) I have given up many of my lunch breaks for data dumps, valuable time when I need to respond to clients via email, etc. and eat and rest. Also, when I get home I now have to do media dumps, buy drives if Best Buy is still open, get them to the client the next day somehow or pack it for Fed Ex, figure out which clients need to return drives, etc. Some clients take my P2 cards then I have to figure out how to get them back, which is a long drive usually. What a pain....I can see how P2 helps the post folks but it is a major set back for a freelance DP like me, when I want to have dinner and pop a beer, watch some TV, I am now having to mess with P2 footage that didn't get done during the shoot day...If XDCAM disc would please finally win I could hand the clients the discs at the end of the day just like I did for years with beta and HD tapes.

I know I communicated with you when I was considering which model and for awhile the skew scared me off, but I feel I have it under control. Clients who are also editors may see it more since they are pros looking at HD editing monitors, but for most of what I do I think the 300 will work, if it won't I'll rent a 2700 for $600. But the bottom line is I have to go which way I will make a profit and right now the Sony horse seems to be pulling ahead in the back stretch, at least in my market, so I would paint myself into a corner with a 2700 or 3700.

The final nail in P2 I think will come in the archival arena. What I mean is some of my clients who are P2 friendly are trying to figure out non-hard drive solutions for archiving the P2 project when complete. The solution: Blue Ray and other Sony disc record decks. So, if they buy the decks then accepting an XDCAM disc from their shooter will be a no brainer right? Then I can go back to the way things were: have a lunch break during the shoot day and go home at night, enjoy dinner and have some beer. No messing with P2 footage.

About 30% of my clients will be going to the airport at the end of the shoot day so I must give them what they are asking for.

Best regards,

Ned
 
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" I can hands down say that if you were shooting an action film handheld with tons of camera shake and explosions and you shot side by side with an HPX500 and 300, you would have wished you got 2 500's instead. You wouldnt have footage, you would have mush from the 300. "

As if your really going to shoot a feature on a 7k camera....

Ps ... I do earn my living with my creative.. be it shooting/editing etc...
 
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