Demo'd a HPX300 today...

When I was considering the 300 I was worried that something better would immediately come out (my luck). Like a 500 with full raster and AVCIntra, a shoulder mounted EX3, etc. I communicated with Jan of Panny, my local Midwest rep also named Ned and my Cine Abel rep Kari. The manufacturers keep them all in the dark or they will hurt sales if we shooters learn that something better is soon coming out. We will naturally delay our purchase.

But I did learn that it is not in the interest of these manufacturers to greatly improve their mid range models because that would cannibalize sales of their higher end units, which is why Sony didn't have 24P for their 1/2" XDCAM for awhile, etc. Why would I buy a 500 if the 300 had 2/3" CCD? I'd compromise on AVCIntra and full raster. So, it seems to me, after watching the ping pong game between Sony and Panasonic for so long, that Sony realizes the EX3 is a money making monster but we resist it because its form factor sucks. That leads me to believe, and no one has told me, I'm just guessing, that logic dictates, to combat the 300 they must have their flagship mid range EX3 model fit properly on the shoulder and guys like me would buy it (although Chicago is more P2 friendly). And ground shaking announcements like these always seem to be right before NAB and then they show prototypes or production models at NAB. I have seen this when 1" replaced 2", 3/4" replaced 1", beta replaced 3/4", DVCAM, HDV & P2 was invented, dockables were invented, camcorders replaced dockables, CCDs came to replace tubes, etc. They tease us and at NAB the curtain lifts. They want a big PR bang for their NAB buck.

So in summary, I do not know for certain that an EX3 shoulder mount will come out at NAB but I would make a sizable bet on it, based on my experience watching these things.

Later,

Ned
 
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In the editor's column of the Videography magazine they mention not 2 but 3 new models from Sony. 2 models have already been unveiled, the EX1R and the PMW-350. The third model is supposed to be presented November 12 on the Sony's online exhibition. The editor wrote that that new model was pure awesomness... maybe they used another word. Anyway, that's what I've read.
 
Hi Ned,

i was (not) very surprised when i read about the Sony XDCamEX 350... I Germany it will out in december. Very interesting thing, but still 3 times more expensiv than the Pana 300.
2/3 inch CMOS, sounds like a Lowlight-Monster. But the Name (350 is better than 300!! :)) and things like the Wireless-Slot and the Option for a "cheap" stock-lens sounds to me that this could be Sonys answer to the 300....
 
nedcam said:
REGARDING SKEW: Have had the 300 for about a month now, half the time run and gun, the other half controlled. What I noticed about skew is that it seems to show more on telephoto and mainly seems to be the verticals in the BACKGROUND. Why, I don't know, perhaps it has to do with the distance?
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It seems that you are a shooter, not a geek. When you tilt you get jello, when you pan you get skew, because the frame is scanned line by line. You get skew on the background because you track the foreground object, hence the object does not move in relation to the frame. No movement - no skew. With the same angular panning speed objects in the distance pass a greater distance in the frame, hence more skew for farther objects.
 
Ugh! So Sony does have something new out. Oh well. I really wish I had 2/3" because about half my corporate work is talking heads and I need to throw the bg out of focus without spending time on adapters.

But still, Chicago is P2 centric rather than SxS in terms of what the editors feel comfortable with. So I reckon the 300 will suffice for awhile. It should pay for itself before clients start asking for something else, like a XDCAMEX 350.
 
Sony does have something new coming out, but it's almost 3x the price of the the HPX300 so it's not in the same class at all. 2/3" for $20,000.
 
Barry_Green said:
Sony does have something new coming out, but it's almost 3x the price of the the HPX300 so it's not in the same class at all. 2/3" for $20,000.
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I wonder how do you define classes. The HPX300 has 1/3-inch chip with AVC-Intra 100, while the 350 has 2/3-inch chip with long-GOP 35. Which one is a higher class camera?

I hope that the new camera, being even more expensive than the 350, will have proper 422 codec. Or maybe Sony is about to offer intra-MPEG-2 @ 100 Mbit/s ?
 
I'm talking about price class.

As far as what Sony will offer, I think they're deliberately separating the market to keep the better codecs off of the memory-card recorders. They seem very bent on the idea of making the disc cameras their top of the line. The disc cameras get CCDs, the memory cameras get CMOS; the disc camera gets 4:2:2, the memory camera gets 4:2:0, etc. Sony has said that they'll never make a camera that records to media that they don't control; I think they really want to enforce disc as the replacement for tape, and therefore they're reserving their best features for the disc cameras.

I don't know why they're doing that; Panasonic put DVCPRO-HD in an HVX200 and they put AVC-Intra in the HPX300; the SxS media should have more than enough bandwidth to handle HDCAM and XDCAM MPEG422, and the price tags of the Sony models are higher than the Panasonics so it shouldn't be a cost restriction, but for some reason they just aren't doing it.

As far as AVC-I, Sony has said that they will be moving to H.264 in both long-GoP and intraframe modes, but not until 1080/60p comes out. They intend to stick with MPEG-2 for all ATSC-compatible HDTV models in their "pro" line.
 
Barry_Green said:
Sony has said that they'll never make a camera that records to media that they don't control; I think they really want to enforce disc as the replacement for tape, and therefore they're reserving their best features for the disc cameras.
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Sony accepted recording to non-SxS media through SxS adapters and even released their own, for MemoryStick cards. This is Sony-controlled medium too, but SxS-to-SDHC is not, but they do work in the EX cameras. It is also possible to get USB feed from the EX cameras. Neither of which is possible with Panasonic cameras. Is it technically feasible to create P2-to-SDHC adapter? If not, is Panasonic considering feeding video not as stream (via FireWire) but as files (via USB)? I know that this is a digression from the topic and somewhat of a flame-bait, but Panasonic seems to be even more bent than Sony about recording only to media that it controls.
 
Sony enabled recording through USB SxS adapters specifically to support their hard disk recording unit. That was a firmware update; prior to that firmware update those adapters wouldn't work. And yes, they make a MemoryStick adapter. They don't "support" SDHC memory, people using that are doing so through third-party adapters, Sony has never endorsed it or recommended it or touted it as an alternative. It just happens to work.

Panasonic, on the other hand, does allow recording to commodity SDHC memory in their AVCCAM cameras. And they provided streaming DVCPRO-HD for recording on decks or FireStores, something that Sony doesn't allow with its EX or MPEG422 codecs. The record is pretty clear as to which one produces and controls the recording media, and which one allows and supports (and, in the case of the FireStore, even DISTRIBUTES) third-party recording media.

Cheap USB adapters are not an option for P2; PCMCIA is a single-interface standard, whereas ExpressCard is dual-interface, supporting both PCI-Express and USB.

As far as recording files, USB isn't a streaming protocol. You can copy files out of the USB already, but USB doesn't support streaming. Firewire works in two modes, either AV/C (for streaming) or SBP2 (for file transfer). USB is SBP2 only.
 
Jvc?

Jvc?

I saw an earlier poster mentioned the JVC GY-HM700 as a contender in this price range, but everyone seemed to ignore it. I just demoed one the other day and I have to say that it was rather impressive. It has an "adult" lens, shoots 1080p onto SDHC cards at 35mbps AND to SXS media simultaneously with the optional SXS media recorder and variable frame rate recording. Plus it is a CCD camera, not CMOS.

I haven't made up my mid yet, because I DO like the 300 as well, but there are some pretty compelling qualities to the JVC. JMHO.
 
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LouCap said:
I saw an earlier poster mentioned the JVC GY-HM700 as a contender in this price range, but everyone seemed to ignore it. I just demoed one the other day and I have to say that it was rather impressive. It has an "adult" lens, shoots 1080p onto SDHC cards at 35mbps AND to SXS media simultaneously with the optional SXS media recorder and variable frame rate recording. Plus it is a CCD camera, not CMOS.

I haven't made up my mid yet, because I DO like the 300 as well, but there are some pretty compelling qualities to the JVC. JMHO.
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I dont understand why people arent talked about the JVC like they are the 300, is everyone really falling for all this mumbo jumbo about how crips the footage is? I have raw footage here and yes it is amazingly crisp, which means it also captures everything the camera does WRONG as well. I've seen the raw JVC stuff as well... Its not as sharp for sure, you can tell that instantly, but its still a very pleasing image, and with CCD's nothing to worry about. What gives? is everyone really that transparent to think that just because its that sharp, means its worth shooting with?
 
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I am falling for the mumbo jumbo that JVC = Junk Video Corporation, their gear is cheaply made and breaks a lot.

Dan
 
LouCap said:
It has an "adult" lens, shoots 1080p onto SDHC cards at 35mbps AND to SXS media simultaneously with the optional SXS media recorder and variable frame rate recording. Plus it is a CCD camera, not CMOS.
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Having demoed an HM700 for a week when deciding on my most recent camera purchase, I can speak to several issues. First, it's very important to note that the JVC is NOT native 1080 - it's upsampled 720. If that's fine with you, then OK, but to say it shoots 1080p is not accurate any more than to say a DVD = Blu-Ray in quality.

As for my opinion in working with this camera, the main issues that swayed me towards the 300 were: 1) Picture quality. It may not have CMOS chips, but to my eye the 300 beats the crap out of the HM700 all day long. 2) Durability. JVC has made few changes to the HM700 since the HD110 and I fear the ugly head of poor build quality will come up sooner rather than later. 3) Layout and shoulder feel. I prefer some heft on my shoulder and a well-balanced camera that looks like a broadcast camera. The HM700 looks and feels somewhat toy-like and is not well balanced at all - in my opinion. It also gets very back heavy if you add the SxS adapter. 4) SDHC cards. Yes they're cheaper but they scare the hell out of me. I've had several friends lose still photos they shot on SDHC cards with no ability to recover them. P2 may not be perfect either, but I feel it's more proven and robust when it comes to day-in, day-out shooting. 5) If you freelance, nobody I've ever encountered wants JVC. In fact I've lost numerous jobs over the years due to owning/using JVC gear. Not true with Panasonic. Agree or disagree, Panasonic is one of the names producers want.

One final item - I've actually had a long positive history with JVC cameras (KY-17B, KY-27C w/ D9, GY-HD110s). When I started with them back in 1993, they built cameras like tanks and were every bit as good as Sony, etc. as far as quality for a lot less money. Over the years, however, I've seen their build quality and QC go down. Most recently I headed up a studio that used 3 GY-HD110s. We had many problems with them. From the "Pro-HD" footage dropping TC on import with FCP (you'd lose 7 seconds every time the camera cut); to build quality. We had issues with the handles coming loose, pieces breaking off (cable retainers, etc.) and the power adapter leaving a little plastic piece inside the jack that caused the power to cease functioning when switching to battery power!

So, those are some of my observations and anecdotes and part of the reason I went with the HPX300 over the HM700.
 
mountainmedia said:
Over the years, however, I've seen their build quality and QC go down. Most recently I headed up a studio that used 3 GY-HD110s. We had many problems with them. From the "Pro-HD" footage dropping TC on import with FCP (you'd lose 7 seconds every time the camera cut); to build quality. We had issues with the handles coming loose, pieces breaking off (cable retainers, etc.) and the power adapter leaving a little plastic piece inside the jack that caused the power to cease functioning when switching to battery power!.
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Thank you for confirming that. JVC has always made pro video cameras with great features and tantilizing prices. Just say no. There is a reason that almost no pro rental houses will touch JVC, they cannot afford to keep them going.

Dan
 
I agree that the JVC name is never asked for in freelance world. But I can assure you I have seen what the JVC HD250 can handle and its every bit as much as the HPX300 could.

the JVC cameras have been around for years, the 300 a few months, so theres no way to tell the build quality of a camera that is hardly in the hands long enough to test that. It is not fair to compare that in the situation. I know just as many problems with the hvx200 being sent in for the bottom screw mount popping off... now thats cheap.

I am not trying to defend the JVC I am just simply wondering why everyone is crazy over the 300 after seeing the footage it seems to just be super excited about something that LOOKS professional but doesn't actually handle any professional applications that would be demanding in terms of footage ruggedness. If you can't pan without seeing even the smallest bit of skew, whats the point? And I keep hearing every make an argument that makes no sense to me...

"the skew is much less in 720p mode" so then WHY the heck would you spend all your money on a native 1080p camera to shoot in 720p mode????????

Why not just get a camera that shoots 720p nativity? I really think Panasonic pulled the sheets over everyone eyes when it came to this camera. They gave everyone great specs, and a professional look. but skimped on the most important thing of all, stability of image.
Just seeing the hpx300 in person makes you think, ok professional camera, can do all the work. The codec says... wow professional camera, can do all the work, the workflow says wow professional can do all the work... and then you come to one thing... The ability for the image to withstand a professional realm that has a moving camera, and boom you get slapped in the face with HUGE limitations, we aren't talking small here... We are talking about situations where the camera can even be locked down on tripod and have a dancer move fast, and their body skews... I will be getting that footage as soon as I can to post.

So again, I really think this is a rushed product that cut the most important corner ever, the image. Sure its sharp as a tack, sure its 10bit, but whats the point of shooting motion pictures if you cant put motion in your pictures? (joke). I am in shock that people are accepting the skew as it is, and not fighting to change it or go in a different direction to better the community of cameras. Maybe I care too much, but I can't help but want to ask all these questions.

I know theres a tool for every job, but the mind game Pana has going on here is a tricky one, they never said anything to "trick" people. And they arent trying to "trick" people. BUT the reality is, the form factor and specs ARE tricking people into thinking its something it isnt. Its like a Ferarri with a little Toyota engine, sure it looks sexy as hell, but what can it do? I think they really played on "sex appeal" for this camera, and boy oh boy did it work.

I believe this will be my last post of me complaining about the image of the Panasonic HPX300, I have said everything I have needed to say, sometimes 2 times over, and its either falling on deaf ears, no one cares enough to investigate, or people just are tired of hearing me complain all together. So rest your eyes because no more will I speak of this situation, I get PM's asking me my opinion on the camera and I will respond, but I will no longer post to the public because I feel as if it looks like I am the "bad guy" now. And I am not trying to be, I am trying to protect the craft I love and have done most my life, as well as protect the future filmmakers from making bad choices. If someone many years ago pushed the electric engine to be better from the get go we wouldn't have ever had these problems with gas like we do now, the cars actually were working on electric engines in the start of cars, but no one pushed its problems to be fixed so they went with the cheaper combustion engine instead. Look where that landed us, could you imagine the amazing difference it would have made if they corrected the technology then to make a better electric engine instead of going for the cheaper less efficient combustion engine??

Think of CCD as Electric Engine and CMOS as combustion. In the long run, unless the skew issues are addressed it will hurt us instead of help us. The only way to make changes is to speak up. No one spoke up for the Electric engine, and now we have an earth suffering, it may be a dramatic and not quite accurate way of comparison, but it puts a prospective on the situation at hand now. Dramatic but effective, after all I am in the business of drama, why not use it.

Thanks for reading all my posts about the HPX300 but I have spoken my bit, and made my stand, I will maybe ask questions from time to time, but my opinion is not asked for, nor needed any more. I will post about other cameras, but not this. Again thanks for reading!
Now on to another posting about the RED... dun dun DUN!

:p
 
Every camera has limitations. The JVCs, the EX1 and EX3, the 300, the 500, the 170, all of them. The question becomes can you work within the limitations of your camera? I guess for many, with the 300 the answer is yes. I know I can for 90% of what I shoot. I recently did shoot a dance film with a solo dancer leaping all over a 60' stage with crazy lighting and lots of camera movement. The 300 was not the optimal camera for that shoot, a friend even offered his 300 to me to use for free. I shot it with my 170 instead, it was the right tool for that job.

I just spent the last week shooting interviews, some b-roll with some mild movement but nothing crazy as far as moving subjects beyond a few people walking through the shots. The 300 would have been much better than my 170 was for this shoot.

Like any other investment in gear that costs thousands, nobody should buy a camera without trying it out. I have now used the 300 for two paying projects. If I could afford it at the moment, I would buy one in a heartbeat, it is a lot less limited than my 5D MKII. The 5D MKII is another camera that is very limited yet I have used it to create great images. I still stand by my assertion that there is no other camera in the 300's price range that offers better overall value or images. Is it everything that we wish it was? Perhaps not, but it is a very capable tool if you can work within its limitations, which most of the time, I can. BTW Giuseppe, if you move the 300 like a film camera shooting at 24 frames with a 180 degree shutter by adhering to the pan and tilt rates in the ASC manual, it is a dream. If you wave it around like a typical video camera, sure, there is definitely some jello and skew at 1080 24p. As far as shooting 720, I love shooting 720, I shoot it way more than I shoot 1080 with my 170 so shooting 720 on the 300 works great for me and there is then less jello and skew than the EX1/EX3.

Dan
 
Giuseppe and Puredrifting,

You both make GREAT points. I think the problem is there is NO correct answer. And the fact is there really is no other option in this price point. For shoulder mount: it's either the HPX300 or the JVC 700. If neither of these work for you, it's the HPX500 or Sony 335 (or similar). But the later are in a totally different category when it comes to price and performance.

My personal opinion is the 300 beats the 700...IF...you can make it work without the skew. But that's the part that scares me, because I don't know how. Or, why should I care to learn? Skew is stupid.

Do I just like the 300 because it looks like a pro camera? Absolutely. Is that 'skewing' my perception of actual performance? Absolutely. Do I like all of its other features? Absolutely. Am I still confused? Absolutely.
 
tommygunn said:
Do I just like the 300 because it looks like a pro camera? Absolutely.
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To me, the HM700, as well as older HD200/HD100, look much sexier than the boxy HPX300. If these were cars, the HM700 would be... no, not Italian, but say Swedish, while the HPX would be undeniably German.
 
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