Defaulted Reservations

Muttondraw said:
But remember it is a reservation, not an order, placed when delivery timing was at best very vague. The nature of the reservation is fundamentally speculative and non-committal, so it should be no suprise that a number of reservations would come from people who were not sure exactly how they would raise the funding to complete the purchase at the time when they placed the reservation.

Martin
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Hi Martin,

I don't think the reservation was in any way speculative, as a refund is available, and you can't sell your place.

Red were always talking in terms of 07 delivery, so anybody who is serious about their reservation & who has not got their finance in place needs to talk to their Bank ASAP!

Stephen
 
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Sidderke said:
I don't have personal experience with it, but if I remember reading that Panavision, if something breaks or stops working, you can have a replacement within 2 hours, in LA.
If more camera's are put at the side, then there is more security that replacements will come sooner. I think that's more important than having the camera a bit earlier - although I understand why that can be very important to people who have planned a feature, too.
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The difference is A Panavision you rent, a RED you buy from the manufacturer. I have heard of no MANUFACTURER servicing equipment in such short timeframe. Make a deal with your rental company if you want service like that.

Johlan
 
I think the simplest solution is to move people to the back of the queue once their 30 day period is up. Once those with reservations moved to the back of the queue come back around they have 30 days from that date before those cameras become available to the masses.

So if for example Red shipped in April to a customer who had been anticipating and budgetting for the camera to come out in June, they could opt to goto the back of the queue and buy it around June/July when all paying reservation holders have received theirs and the second 30 day period begins.

Why do this? Because there will be no specific date given for when Red will have more cameras available. The reservation holders should at least in my opinion be given a final chance to purchase the cameras before non reservation holders do simply because no one knows how long after the spares another run of cameras will be made.
 
Stephen Williams said:
I don't think the reservation was in any way speculative, as a refund is available, and you can't sell your place.
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Sure it was speculative for anyone who didn't have $1000 to spare. A reservation ties up $1000 for up to a year and creates a psychological committment to the Red route. Yet there is no final camera spec, no firm delivery date, no firm committment to exactly what accessories will be available when the camera is released. Anyone who has paid for a reservation is basically having a punt that it will all be worthwhile. I am sure there are a number of reservation holders who are self financing this purchase, who aren't professional film makers and who don't have loads of cash. People who are stepping up from consumer HD cams and are putting together a bare bones camera kit using still lenses. For these guys even raising the initial $1000 may have been a stretch

I am sure the reservation cut off date and the post by Jim stating that the price would only be fixed for reservation holders would tend to convince some without means to take out a reservation in the hope that they might be able to raise the money by the time their number came up.

Martin
 
Some random thoughts on all of this...

1.) The RED Team should be very honored that their good work has moved the conversation to "How can I give RED even more money?" from "Should I put a thousand dollars down?".

2.) The 30 day period is more than fair. There doesn't need to be layers of complexity and conditions beyond this. RED isn't a bank or finance company. If the money can't be raised in 30 days, then RED ownership should be put off... rent for a while.

2.) Barry Green is right. There will be a large number of defaults on reservations. Think of all the last minute reservations... more than a few of those are "Hail Mary" passes at ownership. Even those with good plans can have the unexpected happen. What to do with the potential hundreds of RED's on the shelf is beyond my pay grade to consider, though I put this forward; When RED starts to ship, allow reservation owners the option to pay full in advance. Then, in order, they get first shot at the reservation defaults at the end of 30 day grace period.

3.) Estimating when your RED will be available seems simple. The team estimates shipping to start around March or April. My bet is NAB. Then they hope to fill all reservations within 3 months. My "guesstimate" is sometime in June for my RED... and that estimate will only get better as time goes on... in any event, I won't be taken by surprise by my RED coming available if I pay at least passing attention to this forum...

Regards,
 
Muttondraw said:
People who are stepping up from consumer HD cams and are putting together a bare bones camera kit using still lenses. For these guys even raising the initial $1000 may have been a stretch

Martin
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Martin,

With all due respect, anybody who had a problem raising the $1000 reservation deposit will have a major headache with the final payment of $16,500.

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
With all due respect, anybody who had a problem raising the $1000 reservation deposit will have a major headache with the final payment of $16,500.
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Indeed. Clearly you see my point.

Martin
 
Surely a guess at the number or percentage who fail to take up their reservation will depend on a whole range of factors. If red get their prototypes ready and testing with glowing praise about their image and the focus assist, the beauty of the red flash which i reckon will strengthen once the prototypes are in operation etc. Their might even be special deals if you purchase so many extras etc. There is a lot that red could do to ensure that only the minimum number of reservations will not be taken up. Even so the competition from other camera makers could well hot up between now and say NAB. Remember a lot of red reservations are from people who are making great sacrifices to purchase red and any of its extras be it lenses or the other accessories. A stock market crash could send reservations downwards and so forth.

My wee guess would be around 10% not taking up their reservations. The one big factor in all of this could be the "grey market in after sales of un-used new cameras". If demand is expected to be high someone could easily set up such an advanced pre delivery facility to allow them to finance the deal for those who do not have the money to purchase in return for the camera plus a fee for those who take part. It might not be in the spirit of the red one reservation concept but such as life these things do and will take place with some reservation holders simply selling on their cameras immediately they have purchassed etc.

Remember the rel price is not just the camera but the EVF and the red drive etc.

Michael
 
if too many RED do happen to go into the "pool" perhaps some of them could be sold to rental houses which would put RED in more hands/projects ...

so do we bring Ben Franklins or a suit case full of $5-20's or does RED take Visa ( gotta get that mileage) when camera's are ready?
 
Muttondraw said:
Stephen Williams said:
Muttondraw said:
People who are stepping up from consumer HD cams and are putting together a bare bones camera kit using still lenses. For these guys even raising the initial $1000 may have been a stretch

Martin
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Martin,

With all due respect, anybody who had a problem raising the $1000 reservation deposit will have a major headache with the final payment of $16,500.

Stephen
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Indeed. Clearly you see my point.

Martin
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Martin,

Also with all due respect and even understanding the range of your concern, IMHO this point is a bad point.

«Who are stepping up from consumer HD cams and are putting together a bare bones camera kit using still lenses» doesn't mean «these guys» won't have financial capability in order to raise the necessary $17,500.

I can just agree «anybody who had a problem raising the $1000 reservation deposit will have a major headache with the final payment of $16,500» but that's all! Beyond that, there are a lot of other variants. Each case is a different and a particular case. Be careful with the faulty generalizations...
 
I think Homersapian and Barry have very good suggestions, move up in cue & if you don't pay within a set number of days you are put at the back of the cue and have one more opportunity. I'm sure if one commits to the $1000 down they are prepared for the $16,500 balance, but here is the thing, it's difficult to plan around indefinite delivery timelines. By putting down the $1k we have committed to Red and in turn we have faith that Red has committed to deliver great product. The big question is - when? Many are independents out here. Budgets come and budgets go and depending on timing, (sometimes for some people) cashflow may not perfectly coincide with the unknown - or perhaps someone is out of the country, or in an accident, or whatever. I know if I was ever caught in that position and I had shown good faith in a company by giving them $1000 early on towards something that could easily have turned into vaporware, I certainly would appreciate that same company demonstrating a little faith in me as well. As Jannard said, they want to be fair - this to me seems fair.
 
The promoters of the queue number-shifting concept are forgetting that people are holding onto titanium R's that correspond in serial number with their designated cameras. Sliding numbers won't work as long as the R's are out there. Maybe what should happen is that the people who didn't get into the first queue should wait until the next queue opens up.

I'd like to add that the proposed 30-day grace period is inadequate. Most people (in the U.S. at least) live paycheck to paycheck, and will need a full year to come up with the money. Even then they may end up in debt to make the purchase.
 
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Hi Emanuel

You may be suprised to discover that my position is very much inline with yours (assuming I understand you correctly). My initial post was a response to Stephens, where he said:

"I find it odd that people would order a camera without having the cash or finance available to pay for it."

I was trying to point out that taking out a red reservation was fundamentally different from ordering an exisiting camera. There could be many reasons why people have taken out RedOne reservations without finance being in place, I wasn't generalising at all, I was illustrating my argument with one possible scenario. I can imagine many such scenarios and as such I don't find it odd that many may have taken out reservations without being sure whether they will manage to get the cash together for the final payment..

It may be that you didn't see the earlier posts, or perhaps I just wasn't making myself clear, but my argument was specifically a defense of anyone who was struggling to raise the cash for the purchase of a RedOne.

Emanuel said:
«Who are stepping up from consumer HD cams and are putting together a bare bones camera kit using still lenses» doesn't mean «these guys» won't have financial capability in order to raise the necessary $17,500.
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I agree entirely, this wasn't the point I was making.

Martin
 
planetearth said:
I'm sure if one commits to the $1000 down they are prepared for the $16,500 balance, .
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Thing is, technically, nobody's actually "committed" because the reservation deposit is fully refundable. That's why I suspect that there may be a few who drop out -- not from a lack of sincere desire to follow through, but because they'd be seriously overextending themselves. There may have been some who could scrape together $1000 and figured "okay, now I've got 9 months to come up with the rest" who didn't necessarily have a great plan to do so, but they still reserved their place in line because "hey, if it doesn't work out, it's refundable, so what do I lose?"

I'm not saying there'll be 30% defaulting, obviously. But I am saying that hey, if there are a lot of people in the above boat, who reserved specifically because it was refundable, don't just lump all those cameras into a demo pool, let us move up spots in line and get ours faster. That's all.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I find it odd that people would order a camera without having the cash or finance available to pay for it.

Had the reservations been options that could be sold, that would be another matter.

Stephen
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I'd be somwhat surprised if the majority of the reservation holders had the $ or finance lined up when the reservation was placed. 'Things happen' and it wouldn't be unreasonable for some (or even more than a few) to have to opt out when the HW is ready for delivery.

It sounds like the Red team is really trying to accomodate you lucky reservation holders. :thumbup:

JohnG
 
I, for one, happen to have the $ available (for the first time in my life) for my Red One camera body, plus a few necessary accessories. I don't actually have the $9500 more for my Red Zoom lens, but I figure I have a good 9+ months to get the rest of the money together. I will be renting out the camera body until I get my lens to help finance it.

By the way, I've never owned a car and I don't have a full-time job (I do freelance projects on my computer at home), but I do have my priorities in order.
 
Homersapien said:
I think the simplest solution is to move people to the back of the queue once their 30 day period is up. Once those with reservations moved to the back of the queue come back around they have 30 days from that date before those cameras become available to the masses...
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I like this idea! :beer:

Lowkus said:
The promoters of the queue number-shifting concept are forgetting that people are holding onto titanium R's that correspond in serial number with their designated cameras. Sliding numbers won't work as long as the R's are out there...
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Red can put whatever serial number they like on the cameras, and so can skip numbers to maintain number matching with the titanium R's. So if someone moves back in the queue, the camera that eventually ships to them can just have their matching serial number stuck on it. :)
 
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