Dance recital; low light, and P2 card shortage

[Soundfx4]

My suggestion is that you spend about 12 hours a day with this camera before the shoot. To make it realistic, take it in a garage and point the lens out into the sunlight. And work on getting settings so that you can see the indoor areas as well as the bright sunlight areas as cleanly as possible. I also suggest you learn how to use the waveform monitor and zebras. Further, I suggest you adjust the LCD so that things that are overexposed in the REAL footage, look similarly overexposed in the monitor. You might also want to learn how to use the histogram function.

I wish you all the best with your shoot. I predict it will be a wonderful learning opportunity.

You mentioned some things that I hadn't thought of, but you went into a bit more detail. Since I will have the camera for two days prior, I'll have the time to play with it and make adjustments to get an idea of what I'll need to do. I'm somewhat familiar with how a histogram works, I've worked with them in photoshop and after effects before, so I wont' be completely blind there at least.

I love the idea with a garage, but let me ask this; they will be running through the lighting ques durring rehearsal, so would it be better to adjust there when they do the ques? Or should I still just adjust the camera in a garage exactly as you mentioned?

Thanks.

 

[Soundfx4]

Not only will the LCD screen not be calibrated (and calibration wouldn't even matter if you're viewing it even a little bit off-axis, which you certainly will be from time to time), but on the 300, it's not an especially good screen.

To say nothing of the fact that even if it were a superb screen, it's still SD, and you're in for a world of surprises when it comes to things like focus. You want to shoot full-raster 1080 footage and rely on the little LCD to tell you what you need to know. That ain't gonna happen. It's not at all like shooting DV.

actually the LCD is not SD, but it's not HD either. I was planning on using the viewfinder which has a higher resolution display for focus/adjustments. But even it's not full HD. Would it be a good idea to rent an external display as well for this situation?

 

[Soundfx4]

Progressive was first.

But it didn't work well enough. It flickered.

So interlaced was invented to fix the flicker. And it did.

- Mikko

I honestly thought interlacing was brought about due to bandwidth issues for broadcasting though...I feel like I read that somewhere.

 

[Soundfx4]

As somebody who does a lot of dance work - can I ask a few questions. Your 'dance recital' - is your idea to frame the performance area, then do 5 hours worth of locked of shooting? In this case, I can see where your concerns on ultimate quality of image lay. However, if the idea is to follow action for either dramatic/aesthetic effect then a single camera is dangerous. You're going to be working in really bright wash type light, or is the recital featuring mood, emotive lighting to match the style? If it's NOT bright light, then focus and framing are going to be real problems - what will you cover the out of focus shots you get while hunting for the framing? Without previous knowledge, the group of dancers will suddenly break and you have to either rapidly zoom out (looks pants), or stay with an individual dancer and try to hold focus on them, while they are moving about (fast).

So what is the plan for the end product - is it for grading? If so the out of focus bit's don't matter. If it's for a proper product, then having a super camera is only part of the problem.

I do dance shows with 3 cameras minimum - the one I've just finished editing still left me some moments where NONE of the cameras had useful shots, and a small consumer cam with wide angle, just left running in a fixed position produced something that could cover - as a kind of lifesaver. You don't have this. One excellent camera producing images that are stunning doesn't (in my humble opinion) look professional.

You've decided on the image quality aspects, but what about production quality - one camera means editing will be VERY visible.

So what do you want the end product to actually look like?

I'm not sure about the lighting conditions, they'll run through a lighting que during rehearsals (and the lighting conditions will change per dance anywhere from slightly to drastically). As far as what I want the end product to look like; I want it to best simulate the POV of a person that is sitting and watching this from the audience. I do plan on framing the performance area, and doing the five hours of locked shooting. The only reason that I will need to do panning and scanning is for the DVD version. I understand what you're saying about a single camera with stunning images doesn't look professional, but the dancers don't want transitions to different views. They've always complained about this; what the dancers want is to see the entire dance the entire time. I mentioned in a post a bit back that the dances are choreographed knowing that everything they do will be seen at all times, so this is exactly what they want to see.

 

[mikkowilson]

I honestly thought interlacing was brought about due to bandwidth issues for broadcasting though...I feel like I read that somewhere.

Broadcast was going to be 30p.

Problem was that if you progressively drew the whole frame on an early CRT display, by the time the electron beam got to the bottom of the screen, the phosphor at the top had started to loose it's glow (charge). So when the beam hit the top for the next frame; it would make the phosphor glow brighter again. Thus making it flicker.

The interlacing trick was to draw every other line, getting down the whole screen and back up to near the top in half the time. Then drawing in the missing lines ... on average the screen was updated faster and though the lines from the first field where starting to fade, the lines from the 2nd field where bright enough to hide it, and overall the image didn't flicker.



Of course, given unlimited bandwidth, they could have just made video 60p; but only recently (with 720p) has that ever been achieved (or necessary) .. until of course 1080p60 becomes the norm, but that's a way out yet ... at it appears that even 3D is considered more important than that.


- Mikko

 

[Soundfx4]

Broadcast was going to be 30p.

Problem was that if you progressively drew the whole frame on an early CRT display, by the time the electron beam got to the bottom of the screen, the phosphor at the top had started to loose it's glow (charge). So when the beam hit the top for the next frame; it would make the phosphor glow brighter again. Thus making it flicker.

The interlacing trick was to draw every other line, getting down the whole screen and back up to near the top in half the time. Then drawing in the missing lines ... on average the screen was updated faster and though the lines from the first field where starting to fade, the lines from the 2nd field where bright enough to hide it, and overall the image didn't flicker.



Of course, given unlimited bandwidth, they could have just made video 60p; but only recently (with 720p) has that ever been achieved (or necessary) .. until of course 1080p60 becomes the norm, but that's a way out yet ... at it appears that even 3D is considered more important than that.


- Mikko

I see, I thought I remembered bandwidth having something to do with it, but I guess that was only a small part of it. :bath:

 

[PerroneFord]

You mentioned some things that I hadn't thought of, but you went into a bit more detail. Since I will have the camera for two days prior, I'll have the time to play with it and make adjustments to get an idea of what I'll need to do. I'm somewhat familiar with how a histogram works, I've worked with them in photoshop and after effects before, so I wont' be completely blind there at least.

I love the idea with a garage, but let me ask this; they will be running through the lighting ques durring rehearsal, so would it be better to adjust there when they do the ques? Or should I still just adjust the camera in a garage exactly as you mentioned?

Thanks.

Learn HOW to make the adjustments in the garage. Consider that a trial run where you learn what functions control what. Then dial in the final settings in the rehearsal. Well, that's probably how I'd handle it. You may have different ideas on the matter.

 

[Soundfx4]

Learn HOW to make the adjustments in the garage. Consider that a trial run where you learn what functions control what. Then dial in the final settings in the rehearsal. Well, that's probably how I'd handle it. You may have different ideas on the matter.

I can pick up the camera earlier in the day and learn how to make the adjustments in a garage type environment. I don't actually have a garage but would it still work as long as I was in a room with no sunlight coming in on any sides except for the one? I don't see why not, but there could easily be something I'm not taking into consideration.

Thanks.

 

[PerroneFord]

I can pick up the camera earlier in the day and learn how to make the adjustments in a garage type environment. I don't actually have a garage but would it still work as long as I was in a room with no sunlight coming in on any sides except for the one? I don't see why not, but there could easily be something I'm not taking into consideration.

Thanks.

That should suffice. You could even do it without sunlight provided you can operate in a fairly dark room, with a fairly strong light source some distance away. Perhaps a strong floodlamp pointed 90 degrees to the room you're standing in.

 

[Soundfx4]

That should suffice. You could even do it without sunlight provided you can operate in a fairly dark room, with a fairly strong light source some distance away. Perhaps a strong floodlamp pointed 90 degrees to the room you're standing in.

okay, I should be able to figure something out then. thanks! :beer:

 

[Spotlight Media]

I shoot these dance recitals and performances quite often so I can give you somewhat of a heads up on what you are about to encounter if you decide to shoot with 1 HPX300. You might think your issue is the lack of P2 cards but as a guy that went from a couple Canon XHA1's to an HPX300 I can tell you that 2 days is not nearly enough time to understand the nuances of this camera. It took me a good solid few weeks to get it all to click in my head. Heck even the scene file copying and settings took me 4 hours or so before it clicked, and that was with help from Barry Green and a few other guys here.

You've got things like back focus to worry about, constant focusing if you are going to do action shots, gotta zoom in and out to be certain you have sharp focus. And that LCD is great but it took me a while to truly get used to knowing when things were truly in focus on wide shots. It sounds odd but coming from a camera, like the XHA1, that will do it all for you when you are in doubt, this is a change that requires some time. I have had a few wide shots I thought were in focus but back in the studio were clearly not. You get used to it, but it takes time. And heck you are working on focus in low light which makes it even harder, and no 2nd camera to cover your tracks.

I am not nearly as experienced as a lot of guys that have tried to help you, but I would heed their advice, take every point they make to heart because they are just trying to help you. You are in for one hell of a ride coming out of the gate with this camera. Sometimes it's as simple as "you don't know what you don't know" and that is not a knock against you, this camera is a great manual tool... but boy is it manual!

If you are stuck on P2 if I were you I would rent 2 HPX170's (pretty decent in low light I think) and a couple P2 cards from specialized communications (I think that they rent cards as well) set 1 HPX170 on a set of sticks to CYA while you wander around trying to get a shot that people will want to see. Because if you are going to leave 1 camera on a set of sticks to record a show then that is a whole new set of issues... now you are dealing with god given talent or a lot practice with your zooms, pans, etc. And THAT kind of stuff you will not pick up in 2 days. Trust me I have been shooting a lot of these with 1 camera and while I am much better I still have a ways to go. Not to mention you will need a good set of sticks, if you are in the back or even the middle of the auditorium and have to go in for a close up every little move you make will come through in your footage so you will need a really good tripod. Then again maybe you have that covered.

In any case, good luck I am sure it will be fun regardless!

 

[Cranky]

Instead of pulling your hair out how to get by with one P2 card why not just shoot the whole thing on HDV? Oh, right, you hate, hate, hate HDV. Continue with hair pulling then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#Use_in_broadcast_television

 

[Soundfx4]

I shoot these dance recitals and performances quite often so I can give you somewhat of a heads up on what you are about to encounter if you decide to shoot with 1 HPX300. You might think your issue is the lack of P2 cards but as a guy that went from a couple Canon XHA1's to an HPX300 I can tell you that 2 days is not nearly enough time to understand the nuances of this camera. It took me a good solid few weeks to get it all to click in my head. Heck even the scene file copying and settings took me 4 hours or so before it clicked, and that was with help from Barry Green and a few other guys here.

You've got things like back focus to worry about, constant focusing if you are going to do action shots, gotta zoom in and out to be certain you have sharp focus. And that LCD is great but it took me a while to truly get used to knowing when things were truly in focus on wide shots. It sounds odd but coming from a camera, like the XHA1, that will do it all for you when you are in doubt, this is a change that requires some time. I have had a few wide shots I thought were in focus but back in the studio were clearly not. You get used to it, but it takes time. And heck you are working on focus in low light which makes it even harder, and no 2nd camera to cover your tracks.

I am not nearly as experienced as a lot of guys that have tried to help you, but I would heed their advice, take every point they make to heart because they are just trying to help you. You are in for one hell of a ride coming out of the gate with this camera. Sometimes it's as simple as "you don't know what you don't know" and that is not a knock against you, this camera is a great manual tool... but boy is it manual!

If you are stuck on P2 if I were you I would rent 2 HPX170's (pretty decent in low light I think) and a couple P2 cards from specialized communications (I think that they rent cards as well) set 1 HPX170 on a set of sticks to CYA while you wander around trying to get a shot that people will want to see. Because if you are going to leave 1 camera on a set of sticks to record a show then that is a whole new set of issues... now you are dealing with god given talent or a lot practice with your zooms, pans, etc. And THAT kind of stuff you will not pick up in 2 days. Trust me I have been shooting a lot of these with 1 camera and while I am much better I still have a ways to go. Not to mention you will need a good set of sticks, if you are in the back or even the middle of the auditorium and have to go in for a close up every little move you make will come through in your footage so you will need a really good tripod. Then again maybe you have that covered.

In any case, good luck I am sure it will be fun regardless!

I'm definitely taking everything into consideration, even if I don't like what I'm reading. And it's not really that I'm stuck on P2 (p2 has it's upsides, but price is not one of them) it's that I'm stuck on AVC-Intra and it seams that can only be recorded on a P2 card :\ Honestly...I'm not sure anymore. Maybe the smaller 1/3" CMOS sensor isn't that great for low light, but wouldn't conditions worsen if I were to use a codec that uses 4:2:0 chroma sampling? And add in inter-frame recording, wouldn't that make it even worse? I was considering those types of situations when I decided I wanted to use AVC-Intra, but I didn't consider not being able to get a hold of any P2 cards. And of course there are many things that I couldn't consider since I've very little experience.

I'm upset, but even more than that, I'm glad you all are telling me everything that can go wrong and everything that I should be aware of. I can't be prepared for something that I don't see coming after all. I might be able to get some hands on experience with this camera before the show...my cousins friend works for our local channel 7 and they may have some hpx300s. I could ask him for a tour of the camera, after all reading the manual can only tell me so much. It really seams at this point that my biggest problem (if I use this camera) is that I simply have no idea how to use it.

I do have to ask though; you mentioned about having a good tripod for zooming and panning and such but why would I need to do this? The entire reason I want to do this with one camera is so there is is a single POV that somewhat simulates the POV of an audience member. In my mind, I can't see needing to zoom out, or in once I have the entire performance area in frame. Lighting conditions will change a bit from dance to dance, but I can't imagine needing to zoom in or out, or pan. And then what about focus? Will I have to mess with focus even if I don't zoom, or move the camera? :dankk2:

 

[Cranky]

And it's not really that I'm stuck on P2 (p2 has it's upsides, but price is not one of them) it's that I'm stuck on AVC-Intra and it seams that can only be recorded on a P2 card :\

There is an opinion that Panasonic users abhor the whole idea of a removable 500GB HDD for $100 when they can happily pay $350 for a 16GB P2 card. You must be the first person who wants AVC-Intra recorded to anything but P2.

 

[tommygunn]

I would get 2 DVXs or A1Hs or HMC 150s lock one down wide and run follow cam close for cut ins. You can TC jam them and then do a Multicam edit and it would be much less work than pan and scanning close ups from HD master. ALso no p2 problem just get tape/SD cards for those. Heck the HV20 would be a more familiar camera coming from a consumer model and you might be able to buy one for the cost of a 3 day camera/64G P2 rentals.
.

Jason is right on. I also suggest this setup for you.

PS
Let me know how you can make money shooting recitals and similar events. I used to spend hours/days/weeks editing and churning out DVDs back in the day. ROI was waaaaay to low for me.

 

[Soundfx4]

Jason is right on. I also suggest this setup for you.

PS
Let me know how you can make money shooting recitals and similar events. I used to spend hours/days/weeks editing and churning out DVDs back in the day. ROI was waaaaay to low for me.

As I have already mentioned a couple of times, this isn't about making money...in fact I never even so much as mentioned doing this for the money. After taking some classes and getting the experience under my belt that I need, I could potentially make some money doing this, but right now it's a way for me to get some experience at no cost to me.


The HMC-150 looks nice, and while I'm not crazy about AVCHD, it is better than HDV imo. I'm still wanting to do HD so I'll actually take the 150 into consideration. (especially considering I can't seam to get my hands on the P2 cards I need)

 

[Spotlight Media]

Soundfx4, if you do not want to zoom in and want to leave the camera where it is then you won't have to fool around with focus much. But I would ask you, how fun will that be to watch? It is one thing to see an event in person from a distance but to watch on TV from a distance with the same shot for an hour or so. To me that is boring to watch.

As far as low light no the HPX is not going to be that much better than any other 1/3" camera. I have used the DVX100, the XHA1 and now the HPX300 and I would say that the HPX in reality is not "night and day" better than the XHA1 in low light. It is still 1/3".
Look, bottom line is this... I think you will be trying so hard to figure out how to use this camera that you are going to lose the idea of why you are there in the first place. To put out a great product, learn a good bit, and have fun. Why make it harder on yourself by shooting with a camera that is going to require a lot of manual operation and learning? If you go with a couple smaller cameras like the HPX170 you will learn much more and have the ability to be more creative and free in your shots. As Jason said above, lock 1 down wide on a tripod for your main shot and then roam with the other one for those nice close ups, which will in the end make the video MUCH more appealing to watch and they might hire you next year and pay you! I always think "end result" for the viewer instead of getting caught up on the technology I use to create the piece. After all it is the end result that will get you hired.

Go here and look at the rentals for the HPX170 http://www.spec-comm.com/rentalHPX170.html
They rent 16GB and 32Gb P2 cards as well. They give you 1 32GB P2 card with the camera rental and they are a great company to work with. I have never used the HPX170 but I know from people here it is a great camera and I will be buying 1 soon as my B camera.

 

[David Jimerson]

There is an opinion that Panasonic users abhor the whole idea of a removable 500GB HDD for $100 when they can happily pay $350 for a 16GB P2 card. You must be the first person who wants AVC-Intra recorded to anything but P2.

That's because they're actually users.

 

[David Jimerson]

actually the LCD is not SD, but it's not HD either. I was planning on using the viewfinder which has a higher resolution display for focus/adjustments. But even it's not full HD. Would it be a good idea to rent an external display as well for this situation?

Neither one will be adequate, unless you have TONS of experience already, and even then it's not preferable. An external HD monitor is a very, very, very good idea.

The LCD is SD vertically, where it matters most to the eye. The viewfinder IS nice, but it's still very, very small.

 

[Gary Huff]

There is an opinion that Panasonic users abhor the whole idea of a removable 500GB HDD for $100 when they can happily pay $350 for a 16GB P2 card.

Shooting at SXSW, a camera op using a FS-100 was jostled about by the audience when he was down near the stage and it caused him to lose all of his footage.

That's why.