Dance recital; low light, and P2 card shortage

[Soundfx4]

My sister teaches and dances at a local dance school that, like most dance schools, hold recitals a couple of times a year. The guy that had been recording it in the past had been doing so with a small prosumer DV cam and the footage was always overexposed and just generally not very good looking.

I've recently decided to offer my services to attempt to get a better outcome at a cheaper price and after getting some practice in at their winter show (which is usually not recorded) with an older consumer grade sony DV cam, I've been in the works to do their upcoming spring recital.

After some reading and price checking I figured this HPX300 would be more than enough to pull this off with a pretty nice looking finished product. A local audio/video shop happens to rent this camera out and that's going to be the most feasible option. The biggest problem is that I've never actually worked with a camera as advanced as this one (not even a prosumer camera). I've been reading over the instruction manual to try and prepare as best I can but there are many concepts that are difficult to grasp without my having played with the camera itself. Fortunately I'll have the camera for two days prior to the actual recital and I'll be at the concert hall while the dancers are doing rehearsal so I'll be able to play with the camera's settings and coordinate with the concert hall's technical director.

I am very concerned about a few things though; I want to shoot this in 1080/24pn or 30pn with AVCIntra 100. From what I've read in the instruction manual, the only means of recording AVC Intra is directly onto a P2 card...well the a/v shop only has one 16 gig card and the recital is about 5 hours long. I'm looking for some solutions and suggestions for this problem. One possible solution that I thought of still requires at least two 64 gig P2 cards and an external 1 TB HDD...but this solution also assumes that I can copy the contents of the non-active P2 card to an external HDD while it writes to the other. I don't believe the camera can do this from what I've read in the instruction manual so far. Another possible solution would require at least three 64 gig P2 cards, a laptop, and an external HDD. I could record to a P2 card and when that one is full and it starts recording to the other I pull out the non active P2 card, replace it with the third and copy the contents to the external HDD. Rinse and repeat...the problem with both of these solutions is two fold; I don't even know if they're the best solutions in the first place, and even if they are, I still need P2 cards which I don't know where to get.

My second concern is getting the right look; just looking at the camera tells me there are a lot of ways to play with the picture and looking through the instruction manual confirms this. It's a little overwhelming to me, and while I am trying to read as much as I can and learn as fast as I can, the recital is just a little over a month away. I'd like to be able to achieve an excellent looking picture over the two days of rehearsals and save the settings (I believe they're called scene files?) so I can pull them back up for the recital. The lighting conditions will be dark around the audience and consist of stage lights of different colors and intensities. If it helps at at all, here is the website for the performance hall that I'll be recording in: Jefferson Center Shaftman Performance Hall. I just need some suggestions/tips for setting up the camera visually. I think I'll be covered on sound; they always have mics set up on stage to pick up the tap dances and route them through the speaker system. He'll be sending the three channels of audio mixed into a single channel that'll head strait into one of the camera's audio inputs. The second and third audio channels will be for the audience sounds, and the announcer.

I'm sorry to have written so much, I'm just trying to prepare for this as thoroughly as possible. Thank you very much for taking the time to read over it all and for any and all help.

I've something of somewhat importance to add; a lot of people have been suggesting against this camera, or even against HD all together. If you're reading this and all you can think is "this guy shouldn't be messing with HD" please stop right there. I appreciate the concern that you have, but I've decided on HD and that decision might as well be written in stone. If you have any advice other than suggesting against HD, please by all means share.

Edit: The HPX300 is out of the question due to nobody around here having any P2 cards. I've decided (I think) on the AG-HMC150P after a few people suggested it here. Please keep this in mind as you reply, and thank you all again!

 

[Bassman2003]

This might not be the camera to use if you only have access to 1 16gb card. 5 hours is a lot of footage. You do not want to try and transfer all of the footage in the middle of the event in hopes to use the same card for the rest. That is asking for trouble.

As far as camera settings, you want to go all manual, focus, iris, white balance. The rest of the settings are personal taste and in your position are the least of your worries at this point.

See if you can rent another longer form friendly camera and try to get some camera time with it. You do not want to show up to an event with a camera you are unfamiliar with, another disaster waiting to happen.

Good Luck!

 

[Barry_Green]

Yep, you're asking way too much. You can't do it with what you've got. If you could rent a couple of 32gb cards and shoot in DV mode, no problem. Or a couple of 64gb cards in AVCI-50, that's four continuous hours.

But one 16gb card? Not gonna happen.

 

[Soundfx4]

As far as camera settings, you want to go all manual, focus, iris, white balance. The rest of the settings are personal taste and in your position are the least of your worries at this point.

hehe, you're telling me While I'm slightly worried about this, I'm definitely much more concerned about my storage problem.

See if you can rent another longer form friendly camera and try to get some camera time with it. You do not want to show up to an event with a camera you are unfamiliar with, another disaster waiting to happen.
Good Luck!

Unfortunately, that's not an option; no matter what, I'll be working with a camera I'm not familiar with since I do not personally own any cameras that are good enough to do this on the level that it needs to be done. It also has to be done in full HD, 720 might do the trick, but I want to make sure the parents can see the entire dance AND their kids faces which SD definitely can not do, and 720 may be able to do but I'm not sure :undecided:

 

[Soundfx4]

I can see where that could have been misunderstood. I certainly didn't imply using 1 16 gig card but I also didn't state the obvious either (that being that 1 16 gig card wont' work). I was hoping that there was some answer to this problem that I overlooked given my lack of experience, but maybe there is no answer after all? There aren't maybe, by chance, online rental services for this stuff? I guess that wouldn't be very feasible even if it did exist considering rentals are per day. /sigh I really need to figure this out and fast

 

[Bassman2003]

I must admit, you have some strange cross currents going on here.

You don't own a camera yet you need to shoot this in HD and 720p might not be good enough?

You don't know how to setup or feel comfortable with the camera but this production has to be done at a certain level?

Have you even considered what it will take to edit, duplicate and distribute these five hours of dancing?

Is HD or video production so commonplace and easy that it is just expected by everybody now, even without any experience?

Unless you are making Blu-rays for everybody, they are going to see it in SD anyway on the DVDs.

It is great you are asking questions here, but it might help to be a bit more realistic with the situation. A little advice: don't focus on HD, focus on getting the job done correctly.

 

[Bassman2003]

I can see where that could have been misunderstood. I certainly didn't imply using 1 16 gig card but I also didn't state the obvious either (that being that 1 16 gig card wont' work). I was hoping that there was some answer to this problem that I overlooked given my lack of experience, but maybe there is no answer after all? There aren't maybe, by chance, online rental services for this stuff? I guess that wouldn't be very feasible even if it did exist considering rentals are per day. /sigh I really need to figure this out and fast

Yes, you can rent P2 cards. I just googled "P2 rental" and the first listing is a rental house.

 

[Soundfx4]

I must admit, you have some strange cross currents going on here.

You don't own a camera yet you need to shoot this in HD and 720p might not be good enough?

I have little experience shooting, but I have a decent knowledge and a great understanding of resolution, aspect ratio, pixel aspect ratio, bit rates, SD, HD, video container files, video codecs, audio codecs, frame rates, etc.

You don't know how to setup or feel comfortable with the camera but this production has to be done at a certain level?

You don't really understand the situation well enough, but if you did you wouldn't of made such a comment. I don't really know what to say except that I could put everything on auto and it would turn out better than the outcome of whoever had been taping their past recitals. That's the best response I can give to what you said.

Have you even considered what it will take to edit, duplicate and distribute these five hours of dancing?

Is HD or video production so commonplace and easy that it is just expected by everybody now, even without any experience?

I've not only considered it, but I already know exactly what I need to to in this respect. My only concerns are what I posted, I've already planned everything else and other than working with the camera, I know pretty much what I need to do. As I stated I did this with a DV camera for their winter show and I got plenty of experience with adobe encore (including the video tutorials, easily over 24 hours, and it's still fresh in my mind) for authoring and I already have a company in mind for duplicating the blu-ray version and DVD version for the parents that don't understand what HD is.

Unless you are making Blu-rays for everybody, they are going to see it in SD anyway on the DVDs.

there will be two options:

The blu-ray author of the disc will be in 1920 x 1080 at either 24pn or 30pn with square pixels. It will consist of a full stage shot the entire time as the detail is great enough to capture the entire dance while still being able to see your students faces.

The DVD author of the disc will be at a resolution of 720 x 480 with probably a .9 pixel aspect ratio since widescreen would be pointless in respect to size vs detail since it's SD (I may play with this in after effects though and use a 1.2 pixel aspect ratio instead). I'll be using a pan and scan type technique as well as zooming in and out (my source footage is over 2 million pixels in resolution, I have plenty of room for zooming and panning for a SD cut) based on where the action is. This presents me with much more flexibility vs having a second camera (which was considered) and I can actually move the "camera" where the action is. Of course this is only needed for the DVD version since it's of a much lower pixel count.

It is great you are asking questions here, but it might help to be a bit more realistic with the situation. A little advice: don't focus on HD, focus on getting the job done correctly.

I can focus on both getting the job done right, and do it in HD. I knew somebody would play the "don't worry about HD" card but I really can't do that. HD is infinitely better (well six times better anyway) and as long as it's an option, I won't even consider looking in the direction of SD unless it's to spit on it.

 

[Soundfx4]

Yes, you can rent P2 cards. I just googled "P2 rental" and the first listing is a rental house.

excellent, I found another local A/V shop that may rent them as well. But if they don't have them, it's great to know I'll be able to rent them online! Thanks!

Now that I know it's possible to rent them online, has anyone ever used an online P2 rental service here? If so, could you share your experiences, and maybe suggest a certain company that you were very happy with?

Thanks!

Edit:

After searching quite a bit, I realized that either non of the sites listed rent P2 cards, or they rent the old expensive A series (which will of course cost more to rent). At this point my options are limited to a direct referral from someone here, or lee harman and sons which may not even have p2 cards.

 

[Jason Adams]

I admire your take charge attitude and determination but my 2 cents is I think your in over your head just a bit.

You have really grasped a lot of the "science" behind this but not the practical or artistry.

You speak of HD as though its purpose is to resolve detail in a wide shot. Do you intend to lock down the camera for the whole gig in a wide?

Also what about Dynamic range. In my experience (attending a few local dance things) is that these things are not well lit and what happens if you have an open 750 ellipsoidal beaming down on a kids face on what is a darken stage you might not have enough latitude to resolve any face detail even in HD.

The jump from handycam to HPX300 is a substantial one.

I've recently decided to offer my services to attempt to get a better outcome at a cheaper price

Also the ecconmics don't make any sense. You want to provide an infinatly better product at a cheaper price??????

I would get 2 DVXs or A1Hs or HMC 150s lock one down wide and run follow cam close for cut ins. You can TC jam them and then do a Multicam edit and it would be much less work than pan and scanning close ups from HD master. ALso no p2 problem just get tape/SD cards for those. Heck the HV20 would be a more familiar camera coming from a consumer model and you might be able to buy one for the cost of a 3 day camera/64G P2 rentals.

Just my opinion, learn to walk before you run in the pro video game.

Good Luck, really admire your focus and willingness to learn and you have come to the best place on the web for that.

 

[mikkowilson]

On a side note, you might want to mention to the local rental shop that you may very well be unable to rent their camera due to their inability to rent you a realistic number of P2 cards to go with it.

Only having one 16GB card is pretty weak by today's standards for a rental house.

- Mikko

 

[Soundfx4]

I admire your take charge attitude and determination but my 2 cents is I think your in over your head just a bit.

You have really grasped a lot of the "science" behind this but not the practical or artistry.

You speak of HD as though its purpose is to resolve detail in a wide shot. Do you intend to lock down the camera for the whole gig in a wide?

that's correct; The dances are choreographed with an auditorium in mind. In other words they're choreographed knowing that everything will be seen at all times and so all movements from left to right, front to back, are choreographed to be a part of the dance. So it only seams natural that I'd want to also capture the entire stage as it's seen if you are sitting in the audience.

Also what about Dynamic range. In my experience (attending a few local dance things) is that these things are not well lit and what happens if you have an open 750 ellipsoidal beaming down on a kids face on what is a darken stage you might not have enough latitude to resolve any face detail even in HD.

well, that may be true and I won't know until I actually get there and start playing with the camera on the days of rehearsal. But even so, it couldn't possibly look worse...I think.

The jump from handycam to HPX300 is a substantial one.

The gravity of that will become even more apparent once I actually get one in my hands to play with

Also the ecconmics don't make any sense. You want to provide an infinatly better product at a cheaper price??????

The economics make perfect sense if you understand the situation; first of all, the previous guy that did this probably charged a couple thousand dollars initially and on TOP of that sold the DVD's for 40 bucks each. The rental for the equipment so far (the only thing left is the P2 cards) is $613 for 4 days. DVD duplication will be about 3 dollars each and blu-ray about 13 dollars each (that includes cases, printing, and shrink wrapping). We'll be able to sell the DVDs for 25 bucks and blu-rays for 30-35 (already more appealing to the parents). As far as my payment, well I'm not a business and I can't charge or even ask a price; I'm getting paid in experience and if the owner decides, a portion of the media sells. The owner will simply be shifting funds; instead of paying this one guy to do it all (horribly I might add), she's paying for the rental of some equipment.

I would get 2 DVXs or A1Hs or HMC 150s lock one down wide and run follow cam close for cut ins. You can TC jam them and then do a Multicam edit and it would be much less work than pan and scanning close ups from HD master. ALso no p2 problem just get tape/SD cards for those. Heck the HV20 would be a more familiar camera coming from a consumer model and you might be able to buy one for the cost of a 3 day camera/64G P2 rentals.

Just my opinion, learn to walk before you run in the pro video game.

hehe, seeing as I'm new to all this, I'm not familiar with the DVX, or A1H. I do recognize the model HMC 150 and HV20 though. I kind of hate HDV though due to it's non square pixels and inter-frame recording. Not to mention it's higher color compression and lower bit rate. I'm not crazy about AVCHD for the same reasons (except for the non square pixels, as far as I know AVCHD is 1.0 pixel aspect ratio).

I know they're probably more practical, but so far the owner is on board with the prices for rentals and everything. I just need about 5 64 gig P2 cards, but only 4 if I do 24pn! hehe >.>

Good Luck, really admire your focus and willingness to learn and you have come to the best place on the web for that.

thanks I'm really happy to have found this place, I always try to do my reading and figure stuff out on my own, but it's great to know such a place exists were I can actually ask experienced experts

 

[Soundfx4]

On a side note, you might want to mention to the local rental shop that you may very well be unable to rent their camera due to their inability to rent you a realistic number of P2 cards to go with it.

Only having one 16GB card is pretty weak by today's standards for a rental house.

- Mikko

Thanks for the suggestion; they do, however, already know the situation. When I spoke with them the quote they gave me was not quote to hold the equipment, but rather just a "this is what I'm looking at" quote. So it's all good in the hood...although I'm still freaking out because there's a brick wall in my path and it's build entirely out of "No P2 cards" >.<

Edit: although, my attitude is to get my hands on P2 cards at any and all cost...even if it kills me *dramatic music* heh >.>

 

[Gary Huff]

I kind of hate HDV though due to it's non square pixels and inter-frame recording. Not to mention it's higher color compression and lower bit rate. I'm not crazy about AVCHD for the same reasons (except for the non square pixels, as far as I know AVCHD is 1.0 pixel aspect ratio).

Given your lack of experience, all you hate are merely words on a page. The practicalities of working with the HDV format mean nothing to you because you haven't actually done so.

I second the recommendation to rent two MiniDV cams (like a DVX) instead of one HPX300. Moving to HD won't make nearly the difference from the previous recordings that two DVXs that are properly exposed and shot will.

However, if you get in over your head with this in HD (which so far sounds pretty likely), then you could end up with a result that's actually not that much better.

Just because something's HD doesn't automatically mean its going to be worlds better than a MiniDV cam.

 

[Soundfx4]

Given your lack of experience, all you hate are merely words on a page. The practicalities of working with the HDV format mean nothing to you because you haven't actually done so.

It's true that the practicalities of working with them mean nothing, but non-the-less I don't like them, and at the very least I will NOT work with compressed widescreen footage (HDV) if I can help it at all.

I second the recommendation to rent two MiniDV cams (like a DVX) instead of one HPX300. Moving to HD won't make nearly the difference from the previous recordings that two DVXs that are properly exposed and shot will.

However, if you get in over your head with this in HD (which so far sounds pretty likely), then you could end up with a result that's actually not that much better.

how is getting a properly exposed shot with a DV camera any different from getting a properly exposed shot with the HPX300? I adjust the settings, and watch the screen until they look good...isn't that essentially all there is too it?

Just because something's HD doesn't automatically mean its going to be worlds better than a MiniDV cam.

Assuming that the exposure and levels are in acceptable ranges (and like I stated, I can't imagine there being much more to it on this camera as apposed to some prosumer cameras) HD is ridiculously better...I don't need to point this out, but there are roughly six freaking times the amount of pixels in a 1080p image vs a SD image. Not to mention If I could go back in time and meet the creators of interlacing, I'd smack them and say "NO!! NO!!!! here's a better way, reverse engineer this and don't you EVER give birth to that horrible abomination!" Those lines make my eye twitch in rage...if that gives you an idea of how much I hate interlaced footage :violent5:


My only obstacle right now is a lack of P2 cards. I didn't start this thread asking if I should try to do this in HD or not, I started it asking for suggestions on setting the camera up for a low light situation and for suggestions on either online p2 rentals, or alternatives/work arounds. I've already decided on HD and that's not going to change no matter how foolish you all think that is. I appreciate everyone's concern, but it's already decided. I'll have to make a slight edit to my original post as well but if you're reading this and want to tell me to just use a SD camera, please don't. If you had any other advice that you were going to throw in with the suggestion against HD, by all means please share.

Thanks.

 

[paulears]

As somebody who does a lot of dance work - can I ask a few questions. Your 'dance recital' - is your idea to frame the performance area, then do 5 hours worth of locked of shooting? In this case, I can see where your concerns on ultimate quality of image lay. However, if the idea is to follow action for either dramatic/aesthetic effect then a single camera is dangerous. You're going to be working in really bright wash type light, or is the recital featuring mood, emotive lighting to match the style? If it's NOT bright light, then focus and framing are going to be real problems - what will you cover the out of focus shots you get while hunting for the framing? Without previous knowledge, the group of dancers will suddenly break and you have to either rapidly zoom out (looks pants), or stay with an individual dancer and try to hold focus on them, while they are moving about (fast).

So what is the plan for the end product - is it for grading? If so the out of focus bit's don't matter. If it's for a proper product, then having a super camera is only part of the problem.

I do dance shows with 3 cameras minimum - the one I've just finished editing still left me some moments where NONE of the cameras had useful shots, and a small consumer cam with wide angle, just left running in a fixed position produced something that could cover - as a kind of lifesaver. You don't have this. One excellent camera producing images that are stunning doesn't (in my humble opinion) look professional.

You've decided on the image quality aspects, but what about production quality - one camera means editing will be VERY visible.

So what do you want the end product to actually look like?

 

[PerroneFord]

I am not going to tell you what to do or how to do it. You've already gotten plenty of advice on that from others here. Some of the guys who've responded to this thread are real pros. Pro's at the level of writing books on these kinds of cameras or being paid to take these cameras (this particular camera) to Africa as a pre-production model for testing. You'd do well to heed what they are saying to you.

It's true that the practicalities of working with them mean nothing, but non-the-less I don't like them, and at the very least I will NOT work with compressed widescreen footage (HDV) if I can help it at all.

Well, while I am no fan of HDV, you're really missing out on some things here. But if you've got your heart and wallet set on the HPX, then have at it.

how is getting a properly exposed shot with a DV camera any different from getting a properly exposed shot with the HPX300? I adjust the settings, and watch the screen until they look good...isn't that essentially all there is too it?

Not by a long shot. Firstly, the "screen" won't be calibrated. So this is not a "what you see is what you get" proposition. Second, the HPX will have a ton more options to adjust picture than you are used to. Knowing what to use, and when can make a tremendous difference. Consumer based cameras make a lot of choices for you to keep you out of trouble. Pro cams won't do that. And you are about to shoot in one of the most challenging environments imaginable. The kind of thing that real pro's take time setting up.

If this were MY shoot, and I'd be doing it in HD, I'd be metering that entire stage and every change of lighting. I'd also be kneeing the HECK out of the footage to stay in range without killing the shadows. Trust me, you're going to have your hands full.

Assuming that the exposure and levels are in acceptable ranges (and like I stated, I can't imagine there being much more to it on this camera as apposed to some prosumer cameras) HD is ridiculously better...I don't need to point this out, but there are roughly six freaking times the amount of pixels in a 1080p image vs a SD image. Not to mention If I could go back in time and meet the creators of interlacing, I'd smack them and say "NO!! NO!!!! here's a better way, reverse engineer this and don't you EVER give birth to that horrible abomination!" Those lines make my eye twitch in rage...if that gives you an idea of how much I hate interlaced footage :violent5:

You can't imagine there being much more to it because you lack the experience to understand there is a lot more to it. Yes, there are six freaking times the number of pixels. The problem with having that many more pixels on the sensor is that each pixel is getting far less light because the pixels are smaller in the same space. Thus HD needs quite a bit more light to make an adequate picture. This is why HD cameras perform more poorly in dim lighting than their SD counterparts.

Interlaced footage has it's place, and again, your ignorance is letting you down. I shot interlaced this past weekend on my cameras. And I abhor interlaced. But I needed the extra stop of light. And it was worth it to me to reduce gain noise. This is the tradeoff that I understand as pro, that you don't yet.

If I strapped you into a racing car and sent you out on the track, you could well say that it's the same as a passenger car.. 4 wheels, tires, shifter. But you'd be operating in an environment you were ill prepared for. I am not saying this shoot is going to go badly for you, and I am not saying the camera you've chosen can't get it done. What I am saying is there is a host of factors you have not properly considered simply because you are unaware of them at this point.

My only obstacle right now is a lack of P2 cards. I didn't start this thread asking if I should try to do this in HD or not, I started it asking for suggestions on setting the camera up for a low light situation and for suggestions on either online p2 rentals, or alternatives/work arounds. I've already decided on HD and that's not going to change no matter how foolish you all think that is. I appreciate everyone's concern, but it's already decided. I'll have to make a slight edit to my original post as well but if you're reading this and want to tell me to just use a SD camera, please don't. If you had any other advice that you were going to throw in with the suggestion against HD, by all means please share.

Thanks.

My suggestion is that you spend about 12 hours a day with this camera before the shoot. To make it realistic, take it in a garage and point the lens out into the sunlight. And work on getting settings so that you can see the indoor areas as well as the bright sunlight areas as cleanly as possible. I also suggest you learn how to use the waveform monitor and zebras. Further, I suggest you adjust the LCD so that things that are overexposed in the REAL footage, look similarly overexposed in the monitor. You might also want to learn how to use the histogram function.

I wish you all the best with your shoot. I predict it will be a wonderful learning opportunity.

 

[Bassman2003]

I went back and read your original post and I think you have what you asked for, more P2 cards.

Nothing more can help you at this point from an internet forum point of view. The rest is up to your application, learning and execution.

On a side note, if you had come with a little more humble attitute, there might not have been as much backlash to your posts.

I get a real sense that you think this stuff is easy enough to read a manual and go shoot. It can be, depending upon your output expectations and goals. But I think what is kind of offensive is coming to a place and expecting people to share their years of experience so you can leapfrog in and charge less. This attitude like "I can be a pro, I just need to get the pro camera."

Sorry for the rainmaking, I sure I am overstating this but we can only react to what is written. These forums are very helpful and people generally want others to do well.

 

[David Jimerson]

Not only will the LCD screen not be calibrated (and calibration wouldn't even matter if you're viewing it even a little bit off-axis, which you certainly will be from time to time), but on the 300, it's not an especially good screen.

To say nothing of the fact that even if it were a superb screen, it's still SD, and you're in for a world of surprises when it comes to things like focus. You want to shoot full-raster 1080 footage and rely on the little LCD to tell you what you need to know. That ain't gonna happen. It's not at all like shooting DV.

 

[mikkowilson]

Progressive was first.

But it didn't work well enough. It flickered.

So interlaced was invented to fix the flicker. And it did.

- Mikko