D600 is out

Danielvilliers said:
Yes truly ugly, but I don't know about the D600, but using a D800 I have seen youtube videos that were nothing indicative of the image quality of the D800. Typically they are mostly done by photographers that crank the sharpness and saturation max that tend with youtube to exaggerate the moire/aliasing a lot. Now will have to see more to be sure.
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Cranking sharpness and saturation doesn't affect moire or aliasing. They are always there. I don't know why you want videos that hide it. They are easy to make, just focus off a little bit. Open up the aperture. Anything that smooths the image will reduce moire/aliaising. Everything that is sharp will increase it.

That video looks sharp, so probably shot at f11 or somesuch. Wideangle. I think that's a perfect shot of regular moire. I don't see the reason for doubt. I had the D800 and it featured the same. Ofcourse I can avoid it, I've avoided it for a long time with the 7d and the D800 has less of it. But it's still there.
 
A debayering algorithm geared towards sharpness will show more moire than you need; meanwhile, even with line skipping, you can design a demosaic algorithm specifically desired to avoid moire, and you're likely to achieve that goal, but images will look soft and blurry. I think this is the reason that explains that, in the old Canons, increasing the sharpness parameter increases moire: sharpness is added during the demosaic. Definitely not the same as doing your debayer smoothly and adding sharpness later (which has other downsides: you sharpen the codec macroblocks and the footage breaks down more easily)
 
Take any low resolution image like a 1080p image and just apply some sharpening to some high contrasty line and tell me if you don't see any stair stepping.
 
maarek said:
Cranking sharpness and saturation doesn't affect moire or aliasing. They are always there. I don't know why you want videos that hide it. They are easy to make, just focus off a little bit. Open up the aperture. Anything that smooths the image will reduce moire/aliaising. Everything that is sharp will increase it.

That video looks sharp, so probably shot at f11 or somesuch. Wideangle. I think that's a perfect shot of regular moire. I don't see the reason for doubt. I had the D800 and it featured the same. Ofcourse I can avoid it, I've avoided it for a long time with the 7d and the D800 has less of it. But it's still there.
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Take any low resolution image like a 1080p image and just apply some sharpening to some high contrasty line and tell me if you don't see much more stair stepping.
 
I just got back from the camera store. I usually shoot with a D5100 and mainly with a Sigma 30mm F1.4. I put a 50mm 1.8 on the D600 (to get similar view) and shot a few clips. I had my baby with me so it was a very rushed affair. Anyhow, I was really disappointed. Two things, second one not being Nikon's fault. First thing, the moire and aliasing is just as bad as on a D5100. It's everywhere if you are not careful...

The second thing was that I thought that shooting with a full frame would be a heavenly affair. I don't think I fully understand crops and depth of field. I thought that I would get a more selective area of what is focussed and what is not on a full frame. For example a person standing in the middle of a field. The person's face is in focus and in front of him and behind is blurred. This is shot with an FX lens on the DX camera. If I take that same lens and put it on the D600, I would expect to have the exact same thing but with more field in view? Anyhow, when I used the 50mm 1.8 and the D600 it just didn't give me anything different imo than what the D5100 shows with a 30mm F1.4. I guess I should have tried a 35mm in order to match up. Not sure, but I have always wanted a full frame and now I am questioning why.

Rant finished...
 
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The sigma 30 mm is a dx lens if I am not mistaken. so the d600 will automatically shoot in DX mode so you will see no change as shooting with a d5100. The second thing the d800 video was notoriously bad in DX mode (low rez, moire/aliasing), so I guess it must be the same for the D600 from your experience.
 
Danielvilliers said:
The sigma 30 mm is a dx lens if I am not mistaken. so the d600 will automatically shoot in DX mode so you will see no change as shooting with a d5100. The second thing the d800 video was notoriously bad in DX mode (low rez, moire/aliasing), so I guess it must be the same for the D600 from your experience.
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I think he means he put a 50 1.8 on the D600 to get a similar field of view as a 30mm on a dx camera.

mojo, did you take the clips home and look at them on a monitor at 1080p res, or only at the back of the D600s screen? I ask because the D800 shows a lot of aliasing on the back of the screen when it does the downsampling / line skipping to show the live view, but there is much less on the 1080p files themselves.
 
Danielvilliers said:
The sigma 30 mm is a dx lens if I am not mistaken. so the d600 will automatically shoot in DX mode so you will see no change as shooting with a d5100. The second thing the d800 video was notoriously bad in DX mode (low rez, moire/aliasing), so I guess it must be the same for the D600 from your experience.
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Sorry i meant that I was shooting with the d600 and a 50mm 1.8. Yes the 30mm is a dx lens...
 
mojo43 said:
I just got back from the camera store. I usually shoot with a D5100 and mainly with a Sigma 30mm F1.4. I put a 50mm 1.8 on the D600 (to get similar view) and shot a few clips. I had my baby with me so it was a very rushed affair. Anyhow, I was really disappointed. Two things, second one not being Nikon's fault. First thing, the moire and aliasing is just as bad as on a D5100. It's everywhere if you are not careful...
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bummer :(

mojo43 said:
The second thing was that I thought that shooting with a full frame would be a heavenly affair. I don't think I fully understand crops and depth of field. I thought that I would get a more selective area of what is focussed and what is not on a full frame. For example a person standing in the middle of a field. The person's face is in focus and in front of him and behind is blurred. This is shot with an FX lens on the DX camera. If I take that same lens and put it on the D600, I would expect to have the exact same thing but with more field in view? Anyhow, when I used the 50mm 1.8 and the D600 it just didn't give me anything different imo than what the D5100 shows with a 30mm F1.4. I guess I should have tried a 35mm in order to match up. Not sure, but I have always wanted a full frame and now I am questioning why.
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35mm f/1.4 will have exactly the same FoV and DoF of 50mm f/2.1 on full frame
no wonder you didn't find a huge difference!

more about this here: http://www.similaar.com/foto/doftest/doftest.html
 
dfreerider said:
I think he means he put a 50 1.8 on the D600 to get a similar field of view as a 30mm on a dx camera.

mojo, did you take the clips home and look at them on a monitor at 1080p res, or only at the back of the D600s screen? I ask because the D800 shows a lot of aliasing on the back of the screen when it does the downsampling / line skipping to show the live view, but there is much less on the 1080p files themselves.
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I took the files home and there is quite a bit of aliasing. It's all over the place. I really don't want to take away from this camera. I am sure that Nikon did a great job. It's just that I don't see a whole lot of difference between the d5100 and the d600 for me.
 
Samuel H said:
bummer :(



35mm f/1.4 will have exactly the same FoV and DoF of 50mm f/2.1 on full frame
no wonder you didn't find a huge difference!

more about this here: http://www.similaar.com/foto/doftest/doftest.html
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So how can I calculate what focal length and aperture on a FX camera will give me the same depth of field as a 30mm shot on a DX at f1.4, but with more field of view? I checked out the calculator, but i am not sure it is possible to calculate this with the tool?
 
I guess I should have tried the 35mm F2. It seems like the only reasonably priced lens for what I want to acheive. Maybe I will go and shoot some more again tomorrow with that lens.
 
Try also to look at sharpness when filming and also try a flat neutral profile, if you can. Thanks

edit. I mean don't put sharpness high
 
Sure. I know that having sharpness cranked (which it was by default on the D5100) will really bring out the aliasing. I usually keep my D5100 at sharpness 2 or 3. I will try the same with the D600 tomorrow.
 
Here you go... still converting. Password is D600

The aliasing is so much worse when you download the video. It shows up with a lot less when played back in Vimeo.

 
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mojo43 said:
So how can I calculate what focal length and aperture on a FX camera will give me the same depth of field as a 30mm shot on a DX at f1.4, but with more field of view? I checked out the calculator, but i am not sure it is possible to calculate this with the tool?
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Multiply or divide by 1.5 (the crop factor of the D5100). For FoV (field of view), 50mm-on-FF = 35mm-on-APSC because 50=35*1.5 (aprox). And once you've achieved the same FoV (and that is important, otherwise the following calculation makes no sense), then for DoF (depth of field), f/2.1-on-FF = f/1.4-on-APSC because 2.1=1.4*1.5.
 
If what you wrote was not a typo, and you want the same depth of field but with a wider field of view, then you have to use the same lens, but go even wider aperture (divide by 1.5) when you're using the FF camera (for example: 35mm f/2.1 on APS-C has the same DoF of 35mm f/1.4 on full frame). http://www.similaar.com/foto/dof/dof.php?f_x=1.5&f_r=1.77&f_mm=35&f_f=2.1&f_d=2 http://www.similaar.com/foto/dof/dof.php?f_x=1&f_r=1.77&f_mm=35&f_f=1.4&f_d=2 The advantage of full frame is that, if you wanted to take that same second shot with an APS-C camera (i.e. wider FoV and just-as-shallow DoF) you'd need a 24mm f/0.95!!! ------------ But you're bound to be disappointed in any case: DoF is only half of the equation, perspective is the other half. If you take a picture of a face, the size of stuff on your background will change dramatically if you go from 17mm to 180mm. And that affects bokeh big time: at 17mm, you'll see a whole building behind your subject, and it will be out of focus but you'll know it's a building, and recognize its features; at 180mm lens, with the background at the same distance, all you see behind your subject is a small patch of wall, so it will not be just out of focus, it will be blurred beyond recognition. If you take both shots at the same aperture, and the subject has the same size in both pictures (i.e. you back up when you switch to the longer lens), then depth of field is the same, but the background will be a lot softer on longer lenses. Example here: http://www.similaar.com/foto/tuten/320.html
 
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