FS7: Custom Scene File to match the LC709TypeA LUT

[vilrockerdefer]

Is it just my monitor, or are all those clouds clipped? If so, then yes, it is a very bad idea.

I must admit they look clipped indeed. Maybe I should use HG3, as suggested in this relevant page, instead of relying on just turning back auto knee on ? Maybe both auto knee and HG3 ?

Any suggestion more than welcome !

EDIT : For now, I just set the white clip to 100% and left the rest intact (std5 rec709 and auto knee). I hope I will be fine, first real life shoot tonight...

 

[Doug Jensen]

I must admit they look clipped indeed. Maybe I should use HG3, as suggested in this relevant page, instead of relying on just turning back auto knee on ? Maybe both auto knee and HG3 ?
Any suggestion more than welcome !
EDIT : For now, I just set the white clip to 100% and left the rest intact (std5 rec709 and auto knee). I hope I will be fine, first real life shoot tonight...
]

I had not seen the page before by Liam Brennan that you linked to. While I appreciate the nice things he said about me and my scene file in his article, he missed the most important thing I said at the bottom of the page:

"Just for the record, I still prefer my own INTERVIEWS-1 and UNIVERSAL-1 custom Scene Files that I provide in my FS7 training videos and field guide, but if you do happen to like the LC-709TypeA look profile -- I feel this Scene File might be a better alternative. I invite you to give it a try and send me your feedback." http://www.vortexmedia.store/DJ-LC709typeA_Scene_File.html

In other words, he is trying to improve on something that I never recommended actually using in the first place. As I said on my blog page, I created that profile as an experiment to to see if I could simulate a certain CINE EI LUT. I would never, and have never, shot with that profile myself. I have no doubt that Liam or anyone else could improve on it because it doesn't look that great. I use my INTERVIEWS-1 and UNIVERSAL-1 profiles when I'm not shooting log. I'd like to see him improve on those.

 

[LennyLevy]

Aside from the green question I cannot understand why you are shooting in Std 5 outdoors, the exposure range is almost always too great. I suggest you use a hypergamma - frankly any hypergamma will look better than Std 5 outdoors. (I like HG 1, 4, 7 & 8 depe
nding on the shot but that's my taste- - And I do use Std 5 indoors when appropriate esp for green screen.) Also I would never use auto knee, it can change your exposure while you're panning as it is responding to the highlight intensities. On Std gamma I set my knee at Manual 92 or 93 IRE and leave the rest alone. Your green issue could be a result of Std gamma. When colors approach 100 in Std they go to utter hell and green's will turn an ugly overexposed yellow. I first noticed it with an orange that turned irridescent . Once you straighten that out yiou can improve your color with a nicer looking Matrix. Doug probably has one and if you PM me I'll send you mine.

BTW Knees don't work in hypergamma at all, the roll off is controlled by which hypergamma you use.

Lenny Levy

 

[Run&Gun]

Aside from the green question I cannot understand why you are shooting in Std 5 outdoors, the exposure range is almost always too great. I suggest you use a hypergamma - frankly any hypergamma will look better than Std 5 outdoors. (I like HG 1, 4, 7 & 8 depe
nding on the shot but that's my taste- - And I do use Std 5 indoors when appropriate esp for green screen.) Also I would never use auto knee, it can change your exposure while you're panning as it is responding to the highlight intensities. On Std gamma I set my knee at Manual 92 or 93 IRE and leave the rest alone. Your green issue could be a result of Std gamma. When colors approach 100 in Std they go to utter hell and green's will turn an ugly overexposed yellow. I first noticed it with an orange that turned irridescent . Once you straighten that out yiou can improve your color with a nicer looking Matrix. Doug probably has one and if you PM me I'll send you mine.

BTW Knees don't work in hypergamma at all, the roll off is controlled by which hypergamma you use.

Lenny Levy

On my F55, I noticed that depending on the gamma used, it really affects how purple and blue are rendered. I like to shoot controlled interviews in STD 5 or 3, most of the time, and to get light to read as purple(still leans towards blue, though), you have to dial it to almost pink to the naked eye.

 

[LennyLevy]

Well that sounds pretty strange to me unless you are talking about colors that are very bright in which case if they get into the knee area they will get altered in a standard gamma. I've never noticed that issue at all otherwise.Of course the naked eye will correct for your color balance though so if you're shooting something under colder light then blue could affect your pinks but that's just ordinary color balance , nothing weird to do with matrix or gammas. I assume you're npot talking about that. I think Std gamma is fine for controlled light interviews but watch those highlights.

 

[OnSet]

On my F55, I noticed that depending on the gamma used, it really affects how purple and blue are rendered. I like to shoot controlled interviews in STD 5 or 3, most of the time, and to get light to read as purple(still leans towards blue, though), you have to dial it to almost pink to the naked eye.

I haven't noticed this changing much with the choice of gamma -- it seems to be a tendency of many of the Sony camera models to capture deep purples almost the same as deep blues - to the point that when shooting under stage lighting what looks like two different colors (purple and blue) on stage looks all blue on the monitor.

 

[Run&Gun]

I haven't noticed this changing much with the choice of gamma -- it seems to be a tendency of many of the Sony camera models to capture deep purples almost the same as deep blues - to the point that when shooting under stage lighting what looks like two different colors (purple and blue) on stage looks all blue on the monitor.

Yes. What looks purple to the naked eye, reads as blue or almost blue on camera(STD gamma's), BUT I have rolled through different hyper gamma's and watched it start to read as purple. The scene file could be playing into this, as well. I use a slightly modded version of the Abel Standard scene file.

 

[LennyLevy]

I'd be surprised if the gamma alone would change your color much unless its in the highlights, but if the scene file and the matrix were changing then all bets are off. Did you try this with other cameras besides Sony's and find different results? I suspect that all video cameras have trouble with saturated stage colors though they may respond differently. Especially if those colors are made with LED's they wreck havoc with the sensors. There are lots of adjustments in the matrixes to adjust that stuff if you know what you're doing especially in Multi matrix for specific colors.

 

[vilrockerdefer]

"Just for the record, I still prefer my own INTERVIEWS-1 and UNIVERSAL-1 custom Scene Files that I provide in my FS7 training videos and field guide, but if you do happen to like the LC-709TypeA look profile -- I feel this Scene File might be a better alternative. ."

Of course I understand this perfectly. But I have to be honest, I would be glad to try and purchase your universal custom scene file separately but would you make it available ?

I cannot understand why you are shooting in Std 5 outdoors, the exposure range is almost always too great. I suggest you use a hypergamma - frankly any hypergamma will look better than Std 5 outdoors.

Well because st5 rec709 is more contrasty, less flat, more punchy, more ready to broadcast. First, I need something that I potentially don't color correct at all. Second, I have to be ready virtually instantly, so I don't want to use different profiles for outdoors and indoors. Hence the use of auto knee. I know it can have inconveniences like shifting when you pan. But for TV news, perfection is not expected.

I know that the FS7 is not the ideal camera for ENG. I first bought it to shoot documentary, then I was employed by a TV station that could lend me lighter and smaller sensor cameras. But I like to use mine.

Your green issue could be a result of Std gamma.

I tried all the HG gammas with tree leaves exposed at barely 50%. Greens still look supernatural. Whereas in CINE EI mode, or with Doug scene file, they don't.

So yesterday night I shot an interview with a Canon 24-70 F2 with Speedbooster, lighting was a mix of bulbs and dawn from the window. White balance 3200k. Result if fine with me...

 

[Doug Jensen]

Of course I understand this perfectly. But I have to be honest, I would be glad to try and purchase your universal custom scene file separately but would you make it available ?

I don't sell scene files. When I create a scene file for a camera, it is done in the much larger context of teaching others about their own camera so they become more knowledgeable. I want people to understand what each of the settings do, why one setting is chosen over another, the correct way to expose for the scene file, how to white balance for the scene file, etc. Not to mention showing them all the other cool capabilities of their cameras and how to get the best performance from every part of the camera besides just the paint menus. If someone feels they don't need the education I provide, and are just looking for some numbers to punch in, that is fine, but then I assume they must already have an excellent knowledge of their camera. Therefore they shouldn't need my advice at all and ought to be able to create their own look from scratch.

 

[Run&Gun]

I'd be surprised if the gamma alone would change your color much unless its in the highlights, but if the scene file and the matrix were changing then all bets are off. Did you try this with other cameras besides Sony's and find different results? I suspect that all video cameras have trouble with saturated stage colors though they may respond differently. Especially if those colors are made with LED's they wreck havoc with the sensors. There are lots of adjustments in the matrixes to adjust that stuff if you know what you're doing especially in Multi matrix for specific colors.

They were LED’s, but I had control over them: Hive C’s and Astera’s. And I noticed it several years before I went through it with the LED’s with a shirt or school logo during an interview when I was using a demo camera.

I really should do some more controlled testing, but it’s not really a major everyday issue that affects me, but is something worth noting.

 

[OnSet]

I'd be surprised if the gamma alone would change your color much unless its in the highlights, but if the scene file and the matrix were changing then all bets are off. Did you try this with other cameras besides Sony's and find different results? I suspect that all video cameras have trouble with saturated stage colors though they may respond differently. Especially if those colors are made with LED's they wreck havoc with the sensors. There are lots of adjustments in the matrixes to adjust that stuff if you know what you're doing especially in Multi matrix for specific colors.

I've experienced the 'purple becomes blue' shift quite a few times when shooting broadway shows -- but usually for the shoots I'm on that has meant several Sony cameras - and the shift happening about the same on all the cameras - so at least the cameras seem to match, even if they're not showing the colors I see (or that the lighting designer intended.) Perhaps the colors have been a little closer to what the eye sees on shoots where we're using Alexas and Amiras -- though since these would be different shows there's no actual comparison happening - and we don't mix Arris and Sonys on the same shoots.

At one point on a music documentary we were using 'everything available' for the performances - which meant a combination of Sony, Panasonic and Canon... and quite a bit of time was spent in the final color correct to get things close -- I do seem to remember the Sony cams moving purple to blue the most, though the thing to remember is that once you're in post, the purple/blue differentiation becomes more a matter of final matching unless there's a product or logo color involved -- or the show's lighting designer is over your shoulder.

 

[LennyLevy]

Actually when i said LED's I was referring to theatrical highly saturated LED's not things like Hives. Well all cameras have their their peculiarities with some saturated colors, I don't know how Sony compares to others though I would expect more from an Amira. I use a matrix I made up which I like and I never change for all Custom and which has nice color for me and other people I know use it. likewise I never change the knee setting and you will be fine with a knee at 92 or 93 for everything. I don't know what your problem is with green leaves but I then I never use the Sony preset matrix. You could in a pinch just go to the mult- matrix and bring the green saturations down a bit but be very careful.I've only played with it a little bit and don't know if it has peculiarities. On the other hand the Multi-Matrix is way easier to "grock" than the regular matrixes which are very strange to play with and very counterintuitive.
If you lower the blacks and adjust the Saturation for the Hypergammas they will be perfectly acceptable for News or any other WYSIWYG video and be way better in any situation with larger DR. But each hypergamma requires different black and saturation settings so it can be a little tricky . Alister Chapman says they are meant to always be underexposed a stop, but I shoot so much WYSIWYG for clients that I don't pay attention to that. You do have to be careful to not let an aggressive roll off ( like on HG7 especially) get into a caucasian face though.

 

[vilrockerdefer]

I assume they must already have an excellent knowledge of their camera. Therefore they shouldn't need my advice at all and ought to be able to create their own look from scratch.

Well the situation I'm in is that I don't have the time and/or patience to learn the deep mechanics of the camera... I just want to get rid of nasty supernatural colors.

Your LC 709A seems to do the trick for me. Don't see why your Universal-1 couldn't work as the other one did - or better.

But I understand you prefer to sell the whole course package. Was just asking.