Creative philosophy

dougspice

dougspice

Veteran
This weekend I had a very unpleasant interaction with a fellow DVXuser. I'm not interested in naming names or going into details of that interaction, but suffice it to say that I found it extremely disappointing.

But there's a silver lining to every cloud, right? This whole thing got me thinking about my creative philosophy for success, and how it might differ from other peoples'. I thought it might make a good discussion.

I went to film school, a very good one. I've participated in lots and lots of "Is film school worth it?" debates and I don't have a perfectly clear answer. For some people it's great and for some people it's not. But there's one thing you'll learn in a good school (film school, or any kind) that you may not learn anywhere else, and that's how to be objective about your work. No matter what kind of hotshot, arrogant young kid you are (and I was!), going to school with a couple dozen other hotshot, arrogant young kids will teach you humility, and it will teach you how to take a critique. One of the best ways to learn how annoying you must appear to be is to see others acting the same way.

No one's work is perfect. There's no shame in that. In this profession, your personal feelings simply do not matter. All that matters is the end result. If you allow yourself to become blind to other peoples' suggestions and good ideas, you're not only hurting your own work, but also hurting your relationship with those people. The very best friends I've made on this site and elsewhere have been the result of honest, sincere discussions and collaborations where neither party was afraid of insulting the other... because everyone involved cared about making the work as good as it could possibly be, end of story.

This is the only way to grow as a creator.



Another DVXuser, slimchrisp, recently shared the following lecture transcript with me. It's a long read but if you have some time I recommend reading it. It's about not only how to achieve your dreams, but also how to act as a creative individual and a human being. There were some very choice bits, and I'll quote a few here, along with the link.

...he put his arm around my shoulders and we went for a little walk and he said, Randy, it’s such a shame that people perceive you as so arrogant. Because it’s going to limit what you’re going to be able to accomplish in life. What a hell of a way to word “you’re being a jerk.” [laughter] Right? He doesn’t say you’re a jerk. He says people are perceiving you this way and he says the downside is it’s going to limit what you’re going to be able to accomplish.
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Get a feedback loop and listen to it. Your feedback loop can be this dorky spreadsheet thing I did, or it can just be one great man who tells you what you need to hear. The hard part is the listening to it.

Anybody can get chewed out. It’s the rare person who says, oh my god, you were right. As opposed to, no wait, the real reason is… We’ve all heard that. When people give you feedback, cherish it and use it.
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How do you get people to help you? You can’t get there alone. People have to help you and I do believe in karma. I believe in paybacks. You get people to help you by telling the truth. Being earnest. I’ll take an earnest person over a hip person every day, because hip is short term. Earnest is long term.
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http://download.srv.cs.cmu.edu/~pausch/Randy/pauschlastlecturetranscript.pdf
 
thanks for posting that doug. i hope it helps some others as much as it helped me. i'm definitely renewed in my resolve to make movies, from randy's talk as well as other individuals out there refusing to give in to the status quo.

his talk was the final kick in the butt i needed to start writing the script i've been kicking around for a year in my head. something that i can shoot myself, low budget, all focus on the story. no excuses for not doing it now.

time to start knocking down some brick walls.
 
I had the pleasure of sitting in on a leadership course on giving and receiving negative feedback a year or so ago... and I can say that it is a delicate art form. A good school will definitely teach you how to receive a critique, but I think that learning how to GIVE negative feedback effectively is not always a part of the process. That tends to take a lot of trial and error, and sometimes, a specialized course.

I wish I had some more insight to impart, but I'm still learning a lot myself.
 
dougspice said:
This weekend I had a very unpleasant interaction with a fellow DVXuser. I'm not interested in naming names or going into details of that interaction, but suffice it to say that I found it extremely disappointing.
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Sorry, Doug. I'll try to work on my ego. :)
 
Haha. You just have to learn that not EVERYTHING is made better with more cowbell!

Will, it's definitely a lifelong process to learn how to speak honestly, but not so harshly that people shut down and stop listening to you. As I've mentioned, for some people this threshold is almost zero, and you simply can't have a conversation with that kind. But for everyone else there's definitely common ground that you can build upon.

Part of my job involves developing training films and games for the Army. These pieces have all revolved around cross-cultural negotiation and learning, and I have learned a great deal from some of the practices that the military has put into use. Any creative endeavor with another human being is invariably a negotiation. You simply must learn to think about what that other person's values are and how you can achieve what you want while also helping them achieve what they want.
 
As far as school goes, we also learned how to give critiques. Every film or script or anything we made was heavily peer critiqued, and these critiques were moderated by professors. Did they teach us explicitly how to do these things? No. But over the course of a year or two I think every one of us learned better how not only to speak but also to listen. You can be the greatest genius in the world, but if you alienate everyone you talk to you're going to end up like Orson Welles.
 
I completely agree. As the DVXfest screening approached, a few weeks ago, I talked to a couple people about what I would say regarding people's work when I meet them at the screening. Their advice was to just buck up and smile and tell them "how great it was". Problem is, not only is that not me, that doesnt help them at all.

There are alot of filmmakers that cant handle hearing it. There are alot that will hate you because you didnt lavish them with praise. If my honest opinion of their work makes them HATE me, so be it. I dont need that person around. It's the person that understands that I am coming from a position to CARE enough about their work that I tell them honestly what I think.
 
Yes. Well said!

By the way, did I meet you at the screening? I completely failed at remembering real names/usernames afterwards.
 
GageFX said:
It's the person that understands that I am coming from a position to CARE enough about their work that I tell them honestly what I think.
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i wish i could say the same, but the reality is that i just enjoy insulting people. :costumed-smiley-047
 
I've had a similar experience with a lady friend of mine. She asked me to read a script and give her a critique and some ideas. I read the script, liked it, had some ideas to make it better, smooth some things out, and presented them to this person in a way that was very nice and careful.

Well after I did that it was like I killed this lady's kid. Apparently there were all these people telling her how great and perfect the script was and when I presented my ideas she told me that I didn't know what I was talking about because (PERSON A) loves it, (HER MOM) thinks it's wonderful, and who am I to judge. Well... you asked me to judge it and give you some ideas... so I am who you asked me to be.

In the end though you'll run into people like this all the time. One thing that happens regularly in Hollywood is most agents, managers, actors, friends, MOST will jerk-you-off and tell you it's great rather than take the time to help you make it better. That's just reality. It takes less time to kiss ass than it does to be constructive. Only so many hours in the day.

To me, that's where a filmmaker gets better, understanding that getting great reviews does nothing but make you feel good. It sure doesn't make your product any better. I have learned to enjoy the critiques and get excited about possibly finding a new nugget to make my projects better. I'm still learning.

My lady friend did however call me a few weeks later wanting to send over her revisions. She used a lot of my ideas and appolgized for acting like a twit. She ended up selling the script to paramount and moved to Malibu where "The coke is a lot better." (Her words, not mine) I don't enjoy drugs. And wouldn't know the difference between Valley Coke and Malibu Coke.

Luckily I have a nice solid group of people that have zero reservations about pointing out flaws in my scripts and projects.

Welcome to the club Doug.
 
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speaking of constructive criticism, i'm just going to throw something out there.

so, i wrote this comedy screenplay called Christopher Walken Wants Me Dead. now, at the level i'm at, there is next to zero chance of something like this getting made. i just don't have A) The $ and B) The connections. But, I would love some constructive criticism. I'd like to use this as a learning experience for the next comedy I write.

anyone willing to read it? like i said, just a light fun comedy. i can post a link if i get some yes's.

sorry to hijack the thread doug.
 
I'd be happy to read it. If you're an asshole about it, though, I might have to call it quits on DVXuser! Also, I can't promise I'll get to it right away. But I will get to it.

aurantaurant, I think I've been in the club for a while. It's just that after spending years surrounding myself with good, honest, supportive people, I occasionally forget that there are others out there who are still basically children! But, not a bad thing to be reminded of, all told...

Is your lady friend going to invite us to any parties?
 
dougspice said:
I'd be happy to read it. If you're an asshole about it, though, I might have to call it quits on DVXuser!
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:engel017:

i'd just appreciate the criticism. i know there are a few decent flaws already, so tear it up. like i said, i'm chalking this up to a learning experience for the next comedy i write. i'll post it tonight.
 
Sure I can get you all an invite. But I took a friend over to her place once and she made him sign a waiver before he could go inside. The funny thing is... I read through the waiver once and it appeared that it was an old Adult Softball sports waiver, because on one of the lines it said, "Glendale Sports Complex". I think she forgot to change that line.

I gather she's affraid if someone falls on her property that they'll sue her and send her back to Burbank.

My friend ended up signing the waiver as, "Donald Duck". She never knew the difference.

Oh memories....
 
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Since we're talking about critiquing, doug, I was looking at your Caldera poster and it reads, "At What Price Freedom." I think you should change it to, "What I$ The Price Of Freedom?" with the dollar sign as the "S" in the word "IS".

It sounds like a foreigner to me. "At What price Bread/Apples?"

Just a thought. :) Oh Delicious hay.
 
Sorry. I had to start a production meeting right in the middle of that post so I just put a period on the end and hit "send". I didnt finish my thought, but I think I got my point across.

Doug, I'm the guy who's milkshake you drank for about 20 minutes in Luis' kitchen on Friday night after the screening. I'm forgettable.

(but I bet Penguin's mom hasnt forgotten...)


Also.... regarding TAKING the criticism, I make it a point to only ask people I trust. If there is one thing I've learned, there are alot of retards on the internet that dont know anything yet will pick apart every tiny little thing and be no help at all. So I make it a point to only ask advice from people who's work I have seen and admire and that I know I will get an honest opinion from. It's one thing to hear the empty yet overwhelming praises from some blowhard, it's entirely another to hear a couple simple nice words from someone who has been brutally honest in the past.


blahblahblah.... sorry. I can ramble.
 
Yes, quite true - treasure the ones who give you solid feedback, positive or negative. Trouble is, the vast majority cannot take criticism. Including on this site. I can't tell you how often I'd spend a lot of time giving feedback on some short here, and the filmmaker would turn around and lay into me and be highly offended. It even happened when I gave 95% positive feedback and just 5% objections - and he just jumped down my throat. At that point I gave up. I no longer give any feedback to strangers on the internet, period. Of course, among friends, it's a different matter.

And IRL (in real life), I've learned long ago, never to give honest feedback to ANYONE except a friend. People will ask you for feedback, and all they want is an ego stroke. F*** 'em. I just lie - "oh, it was wonderful!". Do you think I started out that way? Nope, I started out being 100% honest - proudly so. Then gradually, working as an agent, I noticed that if you want to have clients, you MUST flatter. That's reality folks. I truly, truly wish it wasn't so, but the numbers don't lie. I've seen it with my own eyes. Of course, the result is that nobody trusts anybody in Hollywood, unless you are REAL friends (which is rare) - but it simply cannot be helped. You will damage relationships by being honest - no matter how they swear they want to hear the truth... they really don't. Again, it's different with friends, but working relationships with strangers... go ahead and lie your head off, until you get to know the person, become friends and are 100% sure they can handle it. People are insecure - actors, writers, directors, the whole lot of them... it's human nature. Wish it wasn't so.

Here on the anonymous internet, I thought I'd try again - but it's the same deal here. Oh well. The only difference is that I don't bother flattering - I just don't comment on the user section anymore, period.
 
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