Client wants refund

[Imamacuser]

You don't owe him a refund because you did the work. If you hadn't shot any footage or done any pre production, then he would have grounds to demand a refund. Without a written contract, I don't think either of you can make a case in a court of law that one owes the other money. With that said, a judge might pick someone to side with, and it's a gamble whether the judge will side with you or the client. You'll probably be ahead time, money, and emotional pain if you don't take your client to court.

For clarification, is your client in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland (I assume that the laws differ somewhat)?

 

[theprestige]

Ok so this person is now saying that it was ME who walked away from the project and has quoted me as saying so in an email.

He sent a message heavily implying that he no longer wanted to be involved in the project. I sent a response to that message being a bit more explicit and saying that since he didn't want to continue we shouldn't continue emailing each other then as I have moved onto another project. This exchange happened ages ago but this person is bringing it to my attention as to suggest that I was the one who cancelled the project!?

Have I shot myself in the foot and does he have a case?

 

[Bassman2003]

Great posts so far. This client sounds like the classic low baller wanting impossible perfection for nothing. When they see they can not have that they try to place blame to cover their own tracks & mistakes.

I think you need to rally behind the idea of if he never paid you then in reality, nothing was ever done. So no refund and no chance of have a case for expecting money from you. It was all time that was spent in an errant fashion. Maybe consider sending an official "end of project/business relations" letter to show that this matter is over and both parties need to move on. Then if he continues you know he is being aggressive for aggressive sake.

Tough lesson but you have a lot of good stuff to work on in the future. The lesson I would like to bring up which was a large learning curve for me was vetting ALL clients and projects before deciding to work with them. For a small company this is crucial for survival. As you can see from this situation, one wrong step and you can be in the weeds for a while. So many folks want something for nothing out there that you really have to be defensive about your business. This vetting activity will protect you way more than any contract imho. In the end, contracts can be ignored.

A red flag was you being left working for 5 months without any payment. My device for combating a person who says they want to pay on the back end is to ask them to get a loan to pay me up front. Then they can keep all of the untold riches that the project will bring in. We are not banks! No pay, no work.

I hope you can find a way forward. A lot of us have been in your position.

 

[jamedia.uk]

IANAL!!!! Seek legal advice but looks to me like you have done the work paid for. And in fact he still owes you. The fact that the interviewees did not say what he wanted them to is not your fault. Especially if you have clearance from the client before the interview t do it. The client changing his mind after event means you don't use the material However AFAIK he still has to pay for the work getting it because it was done with his approval. He could only really ask for a refund if you had not done the work. What he doesn't like is your first rough cut. Artistic difference so he pays for the work thus far and gets some one else to edit. Not an uncommon situation.

Seek professional advice and ask about putting in a claim for money owed to you *AND* point out that unless it is paid for the work is yours and you will be free to use the interviews (especially with the "other side") in your own documentary. I suspect that his lawyer will say make an offer and walk away. If so accept the offer and hand over the work that he has paid for to him with the proviso your name is not linked to it. You should also warn all the interviewees of the situation. That is only fair. If the work is used it is out of your hands.

As stated IANAL and this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Good Luck.

BTW Hind sight is a wonderful thing. Pity we are not born with it.

 

[theprestige]

Great posts so far.
I think you need to rally behind the idea of if he never paid you then in reality, nothing was ever done. So no refund and no chance of have a case for expecting money from you. It was all time that was spent in an errant fashion. Maybe consider sending an official "end of project/business relations" letter to show that this matter is over and both parties need to move on. Then if he continues you know he is being aggressive for aggressive sake.

Tough lesson but you have a lot of good stuff to work on in the future. The lesson I would like to bring up which was a large learning curve for me was vetting ALL clients and projects before deciding to work with them. For a small company this is crucial for survival. As you can see from this situation, one wrong step and you can be in the weeds for a while. So many folks want something for nothing out there that you really have to be defensive about your business. This vetting activity will protect you way more than any contract imho. In the end, contracts can be ignored.

Thanks for the advice, mate. I need to clear something up though. He had paid me a sum of money before starting the project but he didn't pay me the rest of my fee and the work I had done up until I sent him an invoice. He owes me a few grand, but I don't think it's worth me pursuing it.

 

[theprestige]

IANAL!!!! Seek legal advice but looks to me like you have done the work paid for. And in fact he still owes you. The fact that the interviewees did not say what he wanted them to is not your fault. Especially if you have clearance from the client before the interview t do it. The client changing his mind after event means you don't use the material However AFAIK he still has to pay for the work getting it because it was done with his approval. He could only really ask for a refund if you had not done the work. What he doesn't like is your first rough cut. Artistic difference so he pays for the work thus far and gets some one else to edit. Not an uncommon situation.

Seek professional advice and ask about putting in a claim for money owed to you *AND* point out that unless it is paid for the work is yours and you will be free to use the interviews (especially with the "other side") in your own documentary. I suspect that his lawyer will say make an offer and walk away. If so accept the offer and hand over the work that he has paid for to him with the proviso your name is not linked to it. You should also warn all the interviewees of the situation. That is only fair. If the work is used it is out of your hands.

As stated IANAL and this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Good Luck.

BTW Hind sight is a wonderful thing. Pity we are not born with it.

Thanks mate.

I am going to speak to a legal advisor next week. I completely agree. I did the work and I did it well I thought. He keeps pointing to ONE interview, interestingly enough. And i didn't even show him a rough edit of the work, it was just a bunch of unedited interviews, that was it!! He hadn't seen any of the B Roll or seen the interviews cut in a way that gave it context. I believe it has nothing to do with the interview and everything to do with me contacting somebody who would have had a different opinion to him about matters.

I can't even contact the interviewees as they are either his family member, friend or accountant. But I am going to walk away from it and just learn my lesson.

Hind sight is definitely something I will hold dear to me if I ever do another project.

 

[jamedia.uk]

Thanks mate.

I am going to speak to a legal advisor next week. I completely agree. I did the work and I did it well I thought. He keeps pointing to ONE interview, interestingly enough. And i didn't even show him a rough edit of the work, it was just a bunch of unedited interviews, that was it!! He hadn't seen any of the B Roll or seen the interviews cut in a way that gave it context.

Thats fact. Work done needs to be paid for. BTW I assume you have signed releases for the interviews?

I believe it has nothing to do with the interview and everything to do with me contacting somebody who would have had a different opinion to him about matters.

That's opinion.... (inadmissible?) and clouds the water.

I can't even contact the interviewees as they are either his family member, friend or accountant.

So you could make the documentary but just drop the one interview with the non family member/friend. Tell him you will do that and get the money for the work done. You might also want to not have your name on it.

But I am going to walk away from it and just learn my lesson. .

You can walk away if he is not chasing you. Hence my suggestion, run it past a lawyer first, of saying I want the balance of my money to hand over the material so far. Otherwise I can make my own documentary.... That will make him stop and think. Take legal advice but I suspect both lawyers would say do the minimum to get a clean break which might.could/should (IANAL) means you get your money or at worse just walk away.

Hind sight is definitely something I will hold dear to me if I ever do another project.

Don't work like that..... the next one will be a different mess and this hindsight won't help Proverb: Experience is what we get looking for something else.

 

[theprestige]

Thats fact. Work done needs to be paid for. BTW I assume you have signed releases for the interviews?

I got the releases signed for yeah, though there were a couple who didn't sign due to there being a rush, but I told them I would send it to them via email.

So you could make the documentary but just drop the one interview with the non family member/friend. Tell him you will do that and get the money for the work done. You might also want to not have your name on it.

That's actually not a bad idea, except that I this guy isn't looking for a way forward, he's fixed on building a case about me not being suitable for the job and saying that I lacked the experience needed for the position. I've offered to do what I can with what we've filmed, but he keeps trying to find evidence of me being non qualified, despite that fact that it was him who came to me in the first place. I definitely wouldn't have my name on it now though!

You can walk away if he is not chasing you. Hence my suggestion, run it past a lawyer first, of saying I want the balance of my money to hand over the material so far. Otherwise I can make my own documentary.... That will make him stop and think. Take legal advice but I suspect both lawyers would say do the minimum to get a clean break which might.could/should (IANAL) means you get your money or at worse just walk away.

Yeah I am speaking to a solicitor next week to discover my options. I am confident he can't do anything, hence why he is now trying to go back on the fact that it was him who left the documentary, as I think he has been advised that that decision hurts whatever case he feels he has against me.

Don't work like that..... the next one will be a different mess and this hindsight won't help Proverb: Experience is what we get looking for something else.

I hope so. Just feel a bit broken by this experience. There was never any doubt in my mind I could do the job and I felt like we made a strong start. Even my sound guy said it was the best work he had ever done, but I just feel like maybe there is a part of him that is right and that maybe I was better suited to another position or something. I dunno.

 

[laverdir]

What does your friend who recommended you said?
Can't he stand in as a mediator?

 

[theprestige]

What does your friend who recommended you said?
Can't he stand in as a mediator?

I don't want to involve my friend. My friend has a close relationship with both myself and the client, more so myself, but I didn't want to get them involved in this stressful situation. But to answer your question, my friend has been vocal about their disappointing regarding the client and that it is actually a pattern they have noticed with them and other people they have dealt with.

It still doesn't really make me feel any better about the situation though.

 

[paulears]

Sometimes you need to stand your ground and other times it's best to walk away. If you invoiced in stages and he paid - is that not because he was happy with your work and saw no need to look at it.

 

[Patryk_Rebisz]

You are part of the community and, as is often the case, the community stands behind their own whether they are right or wrong.
Sorry to break it to you but you WERE in the wrong.
Yeah, yeah you did the job and you did it well but this is NOT the point.

You were in the wrong assuming that you are working on a doc while in reality you were working on a promo piece. Yes, maybe the client wanted a doc, he maybe even used this word! - but your experience should let you read between the lines that in reality they wanted something that pats them on their back. Would a promo piece need a different point of view? Of course not! And yet because your lack of foresight you pushed for it. It's as if Pepsi were making a promo about how awesome their drink is and you kept on pushing to interview some execs from Coke...

Another major point where you f-uped is you don't check your language. When we work with clients a brotherhood of a sort develops and we mistakenly assume that we can say anything we want. "Anything you say can and WILL be used against you" as the policemen say. That's why you re-read your emails to clients before pressing the send button - not only to check for grammar and spelling mistake but also so that there can be no confusion. If the client mistakenly or not assumes that YOU cut off relationship at some point because of the wording in your past email - this is partially your fault for not being clear.

Where the client is wrong is to expect a refund for the work done. If he ever threatens legal actions, go into offensive and politely remind him that he still owes you money and if it's not paid its YOU who will have to take actions.

 

[filmguy123]

Where the client is wrong is to expect a refund for the work done. If he ever threatens legal actions, go into offensive and politely remind him that he still owes you money and if it's not paid its YOU who will have to take actions.

^^ This

I make clear in my contracts and conversations up front that video production is an order for labor and supplies, not for a product. The product is open to subjective interpretation, and whether you like it or not is a different issue.

And I'm not sure why someone downvoted me earlier for saying this, maybe aggressive phrasing? But the point is a video is much more than a final 2 minute, 5 minute, 10 minute piece. It's essential to treat any client with the utmost respect, do your best, strive to create a product they love, and be flexible and respectful in making any needed changes if you ever want to work with them (or their referrals) again (ie - make a living).

But on a legal side it's important for you to protect yourself. Your client isn't buying an iPod. They can't expect you to work on a project for 3, 6, 9, 12 months and deliver a video - which is inherently a subjective piece of art (even if it's a paint by numbers corporate video, its subject to personal taste and interpretation) and then feel entitled to willy nilly say "actually, meh, not a fan, I think I'll return it." They didn't pay for a 2 minute film as if it were an iPod that can be returned. It's a custom, built to order piece that involved expenses and labor (and not just labor you did for them - the cost of turning down alternative labor).

At the end of the day, if a client doesn't like your work, they reserve the right to never work with you again, or cease working with you at any point that your agreed upon contract allows. However, at least in my contracts, they do not reserve the right to a refund for labor, services, or expenses already assumed. That would be like contracting a company to build a house, and at the end saying "actually, not a big fan of what you did here... I think I want my money back". Just because video construction is a more intangible form on labor does not change the value of it or the mechanics in which contracted services work.