Client wants refund

[theprestige]

So I am in a sticky situation, to say the least. It's a lengthy story but I am going to keep it as clear, concise and short as possible.

I had been hired to make a documentary for a client who's a friend of a friend. I agreed to this and spent the next 5 months working on this production, going through 3 months of pre production and filming some of the production dates. I was in charge of the majority of the aspects from research, planning, storyboarding, shot lists, edit logs, interviewing, directing, editing, etc. My client arranged the interviews.

During production, my team and I realised that we needed more interviews for this thing and that, more specifically we needed interviews from oppositions to my client (he was the subject), people who would give the doc a more balanced view. We spoke with him about this, and while he was reluctant, he agreed in the end that it made sense.

So I get back from the first half of this production and contact this person, but don't mention my client's name as i wanted to see if they were interested. They were, but before continuing, I I told my client about this just so he was kept up to date with everything, it is a sensitive subject and I wanted him to know that I was not going to do anything that made him feel compromised. He complained and claimed that he did not give me the permission to take such action. We both agreed at the end of the conversation that I wouldn't pursue it any further, and as far as I was concerned, it was squashed.

So he asks me to show him some rushes and footage from the interviews we had already shot, which I send him. Just the interviews, nothing else. This guy comes back to me and has another go about how not only am untrustworthy having tried to contact this person, but that a couple of the interviews I conducted were unprofessional and disorganised in terms of the questions I asked. He then says he cannot work with me any longer.

Obviously, I defended myself as I didn't feel that my conduct was unprofessional at all. Even my sound guy who's also an interviewer by trade said that I was fine, but that I could work on my technique a little bit more. Otherwise, most of the interviews were fine, and it's not like the documentary was going to have my questions featured anyway. I told him that we should finish to project and rest of the production days and edit before making any rash decisions as all he has seen is a few interviews where he didn't like my interview style and that he hasn't seen any b roll footage at all. He doesn't acknowledge that, so I just sent him a bill for the work I had done up until then.

This guy is now saying he wants a refund of the amount he has paid so far, including money back for equipment for the production despite the fact that he owes me money for work I have done. He claims it's because he has received nothing for the money he has spent so far and that I 'falsely advertised myself as somebody who could do this project'.
We never had a contract (I know, I know, lesson learnt), so I probably do not have much chance of getting my money back, but I am not sure if he can warrant trying to get a refund?


I would like to hear from those who have been in similar situations or know if he has a reasonable case or not. Does he deserve his refund?

 

[Grug]

5 months of work without a contract?! Honestly, that goes beyond optimistically lacking in forethought, that's straight up moronic. You could be in big trouble now, possibly facing legal action (depending on how much money has gone into the project to date), with nothing but verbal contracts to protect you.

You don't have to worry about refunding the guy, you have no contract to offer him that protection.

Most likely, your best bet is to hold on to any materials you do have, delete any you've hosted online that the client might have access to, and essentially all you can do is hold on to the footage/audio/materials as lien until he pays you the outstanding amount for the work you've done so far.

You'll probably have to turn over all of the footage and relinquish any claim to copyright if you want any chance of getting paid for the work you've done so far.

But a situation like this is a huge mess, and strongly suggest you start collating and cataloging all of your communications with the client to date. You may well need to bring them to court.

 

[jamedia.uk]

You don't give a location of either you or the client. Laws on this change from country to country as will the advice. In any case the advice is likely to be talk to a solicitor who specialises in this sort of thing.

 

[theprestige]

5 months of work without a contract?! Honestly, that goes beyond optimistically lacking in forethought, that's straight up moronic. You could be in big trouble now, possibly facing legal action (depending on how much money has gone into the project to date), with nothing but verbal contracts to protect you.

I know. I messed up big by not having a contract, it was unprofessional and, truth be told, I felt I had so much to do before sorting a contract out. I did have a contract with my audio girl and DoP, though, but I have paid them so thats that at least. But believe me, nobody feels as stupid as I do for not setting about a contract. It's a nasty lesson to learn but I have learnt it.

You don't give a location of either you or the client. Laws on this change from country to country as will the advice. In any case the advice is likely to be talk to a solicitor who specialises in this sort of thing.

I am based in Bristol UK and my client is based in Ireland.

 

[jamedia.uk]

In the UK there are verbal and implied contracts.... Though I an NOT a Lawyer Do you have Professional Indemnity insurance?

BTW If you were contacting sources and gaining material there is not much he can complain about? It is the normal research for a documentary. Then you look at the rushes and decide how to edit? You only know the material is not what you want to include after you have seen it. Shirley he can only complain if you publish an edited version he does not like? Doing the work to gather it costs time and money even if you don't want to use it in the end. SO I would say he still owes you the money for the work but IANAL.

BTW as stated make sure none of it is downloadable from anywhere. I normally have "not for transmission" and a copyright notice on the rushes just in case....

EDIT Keep a track of ALL the hours spent on this "discussion" with the client, inkling collating the material and the emails etc . You will want compensating for this time as well

 

[theprestige]

In the UK there are verbal and implied contracts.... Though I an NOT a Lawyer Do you have Professional Indemnity insurance?

BTW If you were contacting sources and gaining material there is not much he can complain about? It is the normal research for a documentary. Then you look at the rushes and decide how to edit? You only know the material is not what you want to include after you have seen it. Shirley he can only complain if you publish an edited version he does not like? Doing the work to gather it costs time and money even if you don't want to use it in the end. SO I would say he still owes you the money for the work but IANAL.

BTW as stated make sure none of it is downloadable from anywhere. I normally have "not for transmission" and a copyright notice on the rushes just in case....

EDIT Keep a track of ALL the hours spent on this "discussion" with the client, inkling collating the material and the emails etc . You will want compensating for this time as well

Thanks for your response, very helpful.

He claims that his problem is the way in which I contacted the source. All I did was send this person an email asking them if they would want to be involved in the documentary, but I don't see how else I was supposed to get into contact with them? He claims I was unintelligent in doing that and that I should have consulted him and 'written a letter'. Makes no sense to me, personally. I could be missing something though.

Yes, I told him many times that it was better to have the option of this interview and not need it than not have the option and be wanting it. My team told him that too and he seemed to understand that but has since backtracked on it. This person is a bit of a public figure and has a strong standing where he is from, but I made it clear to him and this person that the interview was not going to be aggressive, it was going to be a side of their story. I felt like I had a responsibility as a filmmaker to do the right thing and give balance to the doc, I was only doing what felt right in contacting this person.

Like you said, it would have been different if I had completed the doc having filmed all the days we were meant to film and edited it all together and then he didn't like it. He would have a case then, but he has not allowed me to finish the work. We were barely half way through.

I haven't done anything with the footage yet, to be honest, because it feels too incomplete to do anything other than a short film, which I will refrain from doing so until this matter is dealt with.

Good idea about keeping track of all the other stuff like emails and phone conversations with him too. I did keep a log sheet of the other hours I spent working on the documentary, but omitted the phone calls and emails because I wanted to keep costs as low for him as possible.

 

[jamedia.uk]

IANAL however "and 'written a letter'" rather than ""send this person an email asking them if they would want to be involved in the documentary" is pointless as these days (last decade?) an email is seen on a per with a letter. Also it has become the more common approach. I can't see that being the basis for a complaint but I an NOT a lawyer.

Depending on the amounts of money involved you might want to consult a lawyer. However I would not pay back anything and point out he still owes you money for work done.

 

[theprestige]

Yeah, i'll wait and see what the next move is.

 

[dmitrizigany]

Ouch, sticky situation, indeed!
Hope it works out.

This is a reason I don't like to show unworked footage to people... most of the time my own first reaction to my own footage is "oh, effin' 'ell, this is shite" and after the edit it looks perfectly fine. I prefer to do at least a rough edit before showing anyone anything

 

[theprestige]

Ouch, sticky situation, indeed!
Hope it works out.

This is a reason I don't like to show unworked footage to people... most of the time my own first reaction to my own footage is "oh, effin' 'ell, this is shite" and after the edit it looks perfectly fine. I prefer to do at least a rough edit before showing anyone anything

Yeah, I should never have done that. It's only because I knew that it would be awhile before I even started going through all the rushes and I wanted to show him a few of the bits he was most excited about just to keep him satisfied until the main thing. I honestly thought he'd understand that he was seeing raw interview footage. If I felt even the slightest hint that he would be critical of what I was showing him, I would have told him to wait until I at least had a first draft.

 

[Jim Feeley]

Uhg. Good luck. Some good comments so far.

> This guy is now saying he wants a refund of the amount he has paid so far,
Does he have the power, money, and bile to sue you over this? If so, talk to a lawyer to at least see where you stand.

As for collecting what you feel is owed to you (if anything, if you were working on this full time for five months (or enough that you feel you're out something equivalent to US$20,000 or more), it might be worth a quick talk to an appropriate media/film-aware lawyer to figure out where you stand in regards to a written vs oral contract, how to approach collecting (if you decide to go that route), or if it makes more sense to just walk away... Or hell, to make the film yourself for yourself. Maybe an arbitrator could be helpful? But I know far too little about law and your particular situation to say more than, "It might be worth..."

Or maybe talk to some outside expert filmmaker, show her or him your footage as it stands, get their take, and then if favorable to you, bring their opinion to your client.

And if you go forward with this project and client, spell out their role....Funder with no editorial input? Exec producer with some access to work-in-progress cuts? Producer with a fair amount? Co-director with more than you can handle?

Good luck man!

 

[Run&Gun]

It sounds almost like this person wanted a b***-job piece that made them look like a folk hero and then realized that's not what it was gonna be, so he wanted to squash it.

A friend of mine used to say that you were never going to be able to do a good story, the REAL story on someone until after they were dead.

 

[jamedia.uk]

It sounds almost like this person wanted a b***-job piece that made them look like a folk hero and then realized that's not what it was gonna be, so he wanted to squash it.

A friend of mine used to say that you were never going to be able to do a good story, the REAL story on someone until after they were dead.

I have a list of people I would like to do a good story on.... preferably some time the week after next

 

[combatentropy]

I probably do not have much chance of getting my money back, but I am not sure if he can warrant trying to get a refund?

From your story, no, he doesn't deserve a refund.

He then says he cannot work with me any longer.

Then don't try. His trust in you is gone. The relationship is over. The reason it is over doesn't make any sense, though. You said:

I [...] contact [a possible interview subject], but don't mention my client's name as i wanted to see if they were interested. [...] before continuing, I told my client [...] We both agreed [...] that I wouldn't pursue it any further.

Why was his reaction to this so strong? Is there something he's not telling you? Or is there something you're not telling us? You don't have to answer that. But based on your description of your actions, it's not clear why he reacted so strongly.

[He] has another go about how not only am untrustworthy having tried to contact this person, but that a couple of the interviews I conducted were unprofessional and disorganised in terms of the questions I asked. [...] Even my sound guy who's also an interviewer by trade said that I was fine

It sounds like your client is coming up with excuses to fire you. He really wants to fire you, but the reason he wants to is not obvious in your story. Maybe you don't know, which is fine. But there's something odd.

I had been hired to make a documentary for a client who's a friend of a friend. [...] We never had a contract

People have hit you hard over this, and you have said you'll get one next time. I would just like to say that this was an understandable oversight. We all want to be able to do things on a handshake and a smile. And this was a friend of a friend.

Sometimes a contract can make things seem too stiff, and you want to maintain that friendly rapport. I have done videos for friends, and yet I gave them a contract. Looking back, I think I mostly did it for them, for their peace of mind: "Here is what I'm going to do for you, just so you don't have any doubt that I will stiff you or that I'm taking my work less seriously because I'm your friend." So you can think of a contract as something mutually beneficial the next time you are maybe thinking it would be too formal for a friendly agreement.

my team and I realised that we needed interviews from oppositions to my client (he was the subject)

I think this may be your bigger mistake. It sounds to me like you weren't to make an impartial documentary. You were to make a promo.

When a documentary comes out exposing illegal practices by a corporation, that documentary was not paid for by the corporation.

News agencies are independently funded. They have to be. Even if a documentary really was objectively balanced, no one would believe it if they found out it was paid for by one of the sides.

If you are being paid for by the subject of the documentary, you are making a promo. If you want to make impartial documentaries, you need to get independent funding.

That is the mistake I hope you'll never make again.


---

Now whether you actually refund this guy's money is another matter. If he takes you to court, you could win but still in the end lose, because it will cost you a lot of money, and then you have this guy who dislikes you even more for the rest of his life --- and this guy is a public figure?

 

[fboonzaier]

No point in adding to any more of the why did'nt you's but as you are still out money...why not edit a sample of say 30 seconds of how you actually intend the film to look...your problem seems to be that 1...he's the executive producer, so he puts up the money for the project 2...he does not have enough experience to see beyond your RAW footage and to visualize the finished product 3...you are not in a good place communication wise at this point. He claims you have misrepresented yourself in terms of what he felt you could do...the way to get around this possibly with a minimum amount of fuss on your part is through your work...a small finished edit...I really don't understand how he went so long before asking for some "dailys" as he was putting up the money?...perhaps an example will speak louder than an attempt at communicating further, as this seems to be his area of doubt.

 

[filmguy123]

I make clear in my contracts and conversations up front that video production is an order for labor and supplies, not for a product. The product is open to subjective interpretation, and whether you like it or not is a different issue.

 

[theprestige]

Then don't try. His trust in you is gone. The relationship is over. The reason it is over doesn't make any sense.
Why was his reaction to this so strong? Is there something he's not telling you? Or is there something you're not telling us? You don't have to answer that. But based on your description of your actions, it's not clear why he reacted so strongly.

I think it had mainly something to do with me contacting this person who had different views to him, I suspect that's why his reaction was so strong. I don't think he expected me to contact this person before discussing it further with him, but I felt that we had all come to an understanding and I wanted to get on with the job. I don't think he liked the idea of being contradicted by somebody he didn't have a good relationship with, as he feels this person was responsible for a few bad times in his life.

Another reason is because that there was genuinely one interview in which I was not as well prepared for as I wanted to, but that's only because I didn't know we were going to shoot that interview that day, though I did get the answers I was ultimately looking for. I don't know if this interviewee didn't say what my client wanted them to say but I know he highlighted that particular interview as an example of my 'unprofessionalism', and to be fair, I admit that I had much better interviewes and that was my least favourite in terms of getting some meat out, but like I said, I elicited a particular type of response that was to be edited into the full thing. There really wasn't much that person could add anyway.

Those are honestly the best answers I can give at this time.

It sounds like your client is coming up with excuses to fire you. He really wants to fire you, but the reason he wants to is not obvious in your story. Maybe you don't know, which is fine. But there's something odd.

I think he just didn't know what he truly wanted for this documentary. He kept having all these lengthy meetings with me right before I was about to interview people during the production, which slowed things down considerably, wanting me to talk about this and that, etc. There was one interview in which I got a person's name wrong too, he pointed at that as unprofessional, which I admit it was, but again, nothing that couldn't be edited out. Perhaps I didn't do a good job of laying out my vision for the final film, I don't know.

People have hit you hard over this, and you have said you'll get one next time. I would just like to say that this was an understandable oversight. We all want to be able to do things on a handshake and a smile. And this was a friend of a friend.

Yeah, I really had a deep level of trust to the point where the idea of the relationship being where it's at right now is borderline laughable. Never thought this type of thing would happen to me. You read about it, but you just never feel that you would be dumb enough to get yourself into such a situation.

Sometimes a contract can make things seem too stiff, and you want to maintain that friendly rapport. I have done videos for friends, and yet I gave them a contract. Looking back, I think I mostly did it for them, for their peace of mind: "Here is what I'm going to do for you, just so you don't have any doubt that I will stiff you or that I'm taking my work less seriously because I'm your friend." So you can think of a contract as something mutually beneficial the next time you are maybe thinking it would be too formal for a friendly agreement.

I know exactly what you mean. A contract is something that feels too formal, but this was a big project, and I have no excuses for not setting one out. But yeah, like yourself, iv'e done stuff for friends where I mentioned a contract and then it brings up all kinds of tension.

I think this may be your bigger mistake. It sounds to me like you weren't to make an impartial documentary. You were to make a promo.

This, pretty much. I just felt like I had a responsibility as a filmmaker to do what was right for the documentary, and ultimately, right for everybody involved. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut and done exactly what he wanted me to do and then I probably wouldn't be in this situation, but I didn't but a part of me is glad as I felt like I finally understood what making a documentary really entails.

Now whether you actually refund this guy's money is another matter. If he takes you to court, you could win but still in the end lose, because it will cost you a lot of money, and then you have this guy who dislikes you even more for the rest of his life --- and this guy is a public figure?

The more I think about this the less I care about the money. He does have enough money to hire a good solicitor to plead his case, there is no doubt about that. I don't, but then, I don't feel like I have much to lose. I'm mostly doing this because I feel like i've been wronged and unfairly spat upon in all of this, getting the money would be the icing on the cake and I would certainly enjoy it, but this is also about showing him that he can't take the piss out of me just because he has more money than I have. It's probably not worth it overall, but I won't be stood on.

 

[theprestige]

Uhg. Good luck. Some good comments so far.

> This guy is now saying he wants a refund of the amount he has paid so far,
Does he have the power, money, and bile to sue you over this? If so, talk to a lawyer to at least see where you stand.

He does have enough money to do what he wants, yeah. That doesn't frighten me though. I know I didn't do wrong and that the documentary would have turned out like I had it mapped out. I wasn't given a chance to finish it and I think that's probably my biggest weapon against him as we agreed that I would edit this into a hour long documentary where he would review the drafts until he was satisfied and then pay me my final fee. If we are talking verbal contract then that's in writing via emails and I have all the pre production notes to prove it. He might have enough money that I won't get anywhere and end up the one paying him, but I am not going to be a coward and not fight back.

The amount he owes me isn't even that much, it's only a couple of grand, but it's still something I worked for.

 

[jamedia.uk]

The amount he owes me isn't even that much, it's only a couple of grand, but it's still something I worked for.

walk away... Otherwise it will cost you a lot more in the longer run

 

[fboonzaier]

He does have enough money to do what he wants, yeah. That doesn't frighten me though. I know I didn't do wrong and that the documentary would have turned out like I had it mapped out. I wasn't given a chance to finish it and I think that's probably my biggest weapon against him as we agreed that I would edit this into a hour long documentary where he would review the drafts until he was satisfied and then pay me my final fee. If we are talking verbal contract then that's in writing via emails and I have all the pre production notes to prove it. He might have enough money that I won't get anywhere and end up the one paying him, but I am not going to be a coward and not fight back.

The amount he owes me isn't even that much, it's only a couple of grand, but it's still something I worked for.

Sounds like you have a paper trail, regardless of contract...in the US at least there's some protection to prevent the rich from simply suing the poor into oblivion...if he takes you to court,and you've adhered to your agreement per your correspondence via email, and he sues just because he can, you can get awarded your legal costs (damages) as well as money still owed...Britain may vary, but I suspect not in this regard....re lack of a contract...it was a friend of a friend...it's understandable, if not perhaps the most prudent...I personally like the idea of being able to trust people...you really had no idea that he would turn like this...the best thing about contacts really, is they remove any doubt at the back end...