C300: Client Lens Complaints!

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
For the second time this year, I had a client complain that I wasn't using a servo lens. I was in Brazil a few months ago and the director of the documentary I was shooting wanted me to do some slow pull out reveals of some landscape shots. I was shooting with my 18-135 STM IS and showed the director that it was a still lens and regretfully not capable of performing a slow, smooth zoom. Note taken.

Yesterday, I was shooting for a LARGE company who had a huge booth at E3 in LA. I was assigned to shoot sequences of video game nerds playing a new release of the company's biggest game. From what the producer communicated to me, they wanted little sequences, wide, medium, CU of hands with controllers, hands up to face, hands to screen, over the shoulder with player and screen, etc. Stuff that we all do, all of the time. My friend was in the edit bay, editing cips for upload to NYC for release (day and date), so needless to say, time was of the essence. At the end of the day, the producer pulled me aside and told me, "I love your shots, your camera looks amazing (C300) but you not being able to shoot the entire sequence with zooms meant that the editor had to edit this film style with cut, cut, cut, cut, which was killing me on time. From now on, when you shoot for us, you have to use a camera with a (servo) zoom, your camera is not set up for quick event coverage." This production company still uses EX3s because of this but I hate shooting with the EX3 so I used my C300.

The producer was with me, calling shots in the chaos earlier and could see what I was shooting on my Blade screen. I was using the EF-S 17-55 2.8 IS as it was really low light. I couldn't get the shots that he wanted and regretfully, I could not deliver it to him with a still lens. The dilemma is that I was running the lens at 2.8 wide open all day with ISO boosted to about 1600-2000, depending on where we were in the ridiculously large booth. Booth is not the right term really, as their display covered about three city blocks, it was insanely huge, very interestingly lit with all kinds of remote, LED, moving stage lights all set up on DMX with ever changing scenes. I gave up on white balance, it didn't matter, everything was psychedelic ever changing colors all day. Manual white balance off of a card, daylight and tungsten presets and even dialing in manual WB by hand at extremes, people all looked like color crazy Martians all day but that didn't matter. The ability to not be able to servo zoom did. If I would have had the CNe 18-80 T4.4 Servo zoom though, it would have been two stops slower wide open (think I have the math right? F2.8, which is usually about T3.5 versus T4.4 which is really about F4?) I would have had to dial up the ISO to more like 3200 to 5000 but at least I could have delivered the zoom/reframes the producer wanted. It would have been tough without an on camera LED panel and they didn't want to use them as an on-camera light spolied the atmosphere and would have made us stand out to the gamers, they wanted us to blend in and not call attention to ourselves.

An alternative to buying or renting the CNe 18-80 for my C cameras would be to spend the same money and buy/rent a fixed lens Panasonic or Sony camera. I don't shoot many events, usually only once or twice a year for this company so probably doesn't make sense to buy, but if you were in my position, what would you do, rent the 18-80 or rent a different fixed lens servo zoom camera (compressed media is fine, this stuff gets used for broadcast a bit but more on the web). I love my Canons, have the C100/300 and pre-oredered the C200 but for these occasional trade show events, maybe a simpler, fixed lens camera is better? My C300 on the VCT Pro Baseplate with the Tilta Arri rosette extension handle and Wooden Camera grip relocater with the Ninja Blade at the rear of the camera riding on a 6" 15mm rod was not too heavy and balanced well but for insanely tight quarters (imagine shooting sequences while standing in line for a ride at Disneyland or at a concert), my rig was stupidly long, I bumped a lot of people and a lot of people bumped me. Maybe rentng a Sony or Panasonic fixed lens camera would have just been easier? I hate shooting events but it seems as if I end up shooting them a couple times a year, usually at trade shows.

Thoughts?
 
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The dreaded zoom! haha
The large sensor zoom lenses are definitely going to add to your foot print. And as you already know, making it tougher to get those below the shoulder shots of hands and such...albeit not impossible.

I see three options:
1. Rent servo zoom lens, and deal with the added bulk through brute force.
2. Rent fixed lens like DVX200 with decent codec and large sensor.
3. Add wireless motor to your still-zoom and have the Director or AC pull your zoom...as long as you can keep focus and such. It'd be smooth. It would add bulk, but potentially more flexibly distributed around the body of the camera.

Last resort, shoot 4k and tell them to do the reveal in post? Not ideal, but I'd be lying if I said I'd never done that before.

Oh, was the word you were looking for "Pavilion"?
 
I'm just surprised I am getting more requests for zooms while shooting, I agree, I thought live zooms went out in the 70s? But directors and producers want what they want. I like servo zoom lenses not for visible zooms but for slight reframes as I shoot handheld, I get it.

1. Worried more about the light loss on certain shoots like at E3 yesterday than the size and bulk although that plays a part. I've used the CNe 18-80 though, reviewed it for HD Video Pro and for what it is, it is surprisingly small and light. Nothing like the 17-55 2.8 but not bad for a servo zoom.
2. I don't mind renting a fixed lens camera, or using my producing partners HPX-250, I've shot with it before. The colors on the DVX-200 bug me, they look bleah. I know Barry has told me that they can be dialed in but on a one day rental, not going to have time to mess with color matrices and testing.
3. Don't think I would go with option 3, not for occasional event work, not worth the hassle.

As far as 4K, no, they are set up for 1080 workflow and would still complain that they (the editor and producer) have to do the work rather than me, as the camera op.

"Pavillion" works.
 
FWIW, if you are going the PannyCam route, the 270 has a greatly improved servo control over the 250. It is one of the features that made the 270 stand out from previous PannyCams along with the brains (menus) of the 5000 cam and improved IS. The lens between the two seems the same though not sure. At wide angle the the lens comes in at f/1.6. You can add a reasonable amount of gain without a huge penalty.

Grant
 
puredrifting said:
I'm just surprised I am getting more requests for zooms while shooting, I agree, I thought live zooms went out in the 70s? But directors and producers want what they want. I like servo zoom lenses not for visible zooms but for slight reframes as I shoot handheld, I get it.
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That made me laugh. I guess it depends on the world you live in, so to speak. My bread and butter is network tv. I live on zoom lenses. It's kind of funny, still lenses are part of what has helped usher in large sensor cameras to the masses, but at the same time, they're one of the biggest hinderances, too. Outside of a sit-down interview situation, I have despised still lenses for shooting video. And honestly, I almost NEVER use a still lens on my C300 or F55 anymore. I'm sure this isn't what you want to hear, but for me, b-roll and general shooting with large sensor cameras finally became acceptable to me back in December when I bit the bullet and bought a 17-120. Wide, medium, tight, "live" push or pull, smooth "on-air" iris change... It's all there. For a price...

Call me old-fashioned, but I still love a good ENG camera with an ENG lens. I hate trying to shoot "event coverage" with a large sensor camera. There is no need for a s35 or full frame sensor camera to shoot something like that. It makes it way harder than it has to be. I worked(some) on a show back when the C300 was still new. They shot everything on it. There was no need for it for 80%+ of it. The bulk of it was walk & talk with host and guest. We should have been using 2/3" ENG cameras with ENG w/a's and the 300's for sit-downs. I can't even remember if the Cabrio was available, yet. The right tools at the right times for the right jobs.

PD, I'm not trying to bust your balls, I'm just saying that we need to use the right tools for the job.

I had a friend that got kind of stuck like that last year. I was handling the live set-up and he was doing the sit-downs. They told him that he was also gonna need to shoot some scenics. They actually meant he needed to shoot bumper shots to be used coming in and out of the show(scenic type shots with slow zoom ins or outs). Same thing as you, he had still lenses and couldn't live zoom. They were able to do "digital" moves, but they weren't happy. But it was their fault for not being clear what they wanted to begin with. The second day he brought his ENG cam, as well.
 
It sounds like you should just invest in one, thats how it goes isn't it? the work starts to dictate the gear purchases over time so you sustain that type of work.

I've always tried to go with image first and practicality later but it always bites you in the ass, you need to work smart I guess and use whats best for the job.

In the past I dropped FS700 for BM cameras like the 2.5K and 4K when they dropped but what a nightmare for shooting quick corp shoots, big mistake, but quickly realized a couple of Canon L zooms and a C100 was the way to go and all was good.

I was also looking at lenses like the new 18-80 and think it prob is a great combo with C300 II, can't imagine it would be a bad investment but yep, if I had a ton of those events then something like the Canon XC15 or DVX200 would prob pay itself off and use C300 for other stuff.
 
I'm with Run&Gun about zooms. I live the broadcast world as well. Zooms never went away. Those buttery smooth rocker zooms on ENG and box lenses are there to be used and abused. Live TV don't got no time to set up tracks for a nice dolly move. That's what the DVX-200 is good for. They spec it at f2.8 at the wide, but I don't see a spec for it zoomed in. If that doesn't do it for you, then rent in the 2/3" world where you can get a 20x zoom with a constant f1.8 and zoom to your clients pleasure.

For me, its been the other way. Having been used to 20x zooms, I'm wondering what is with these guys switching primes and not having parfocal lenses. How do they work?
 
Run&Gun said:
That made me laugh. I guess it depends on the world you live in, so to speak. My bread and butter is network tv. I live on zoom lenses. It's kind of funny, still lenses are part of what has helped usher in large sensor cameras to the masses, but at the same time, they're one of the biggest hinderances, too. Outside of a sit-down interview situation, I have despised still lenses for shooting video. And honestly, I almost NEVER use a still lens on my C300 or F55 anymore. I'm sure this isn't what you want to hear, but for me, b-roll and general shooting with large sensor cameras finally became acceptable to me back in December when I bit the bullet and bought a 17-120. Wide, medium, tight, "live" push or pull, smooth "on-air" iris change... It's all there. For a price...

Call me old-fashioned, but I still love a good ENG camera with an ENG lens. I hate trying to shoot "event coverage" with a large sensor camera. There is no need for a s35 or full frame sensor camera to shoot something like that. It makes it way harder than it has to be. I worked(some) on a show back when the C300 was still new. They shot everything on it. There was no need for it for 80%+ of it. The bulk of it was walk & talk with host and guest. We should have been using 2/3" ENG cameras with ENG w/a's and the 300's for sit-downs. I can't even remember if the Cabrio was available, yet. The right tools at the right times for the right jobs.

PD, I'm not trying to bust your balls, I'm just saying that we need to use the right tools for the job.

I had a friend that got kind of stuck like that last year. I was handling the live set-up and he was doing the sit-downs. They told him that he was also gonna need to shoot some scenics. They actually meant he needed to shoot bumper shots to be used coming in and out of the show(scenic type shots with slow zoom ins or outs). Same thing as you, he had still lenses and couldn't live zoom. They were able to do "digital" moves, but they weren't happy. But it was their fault for not being clear what they wanted to begin with. The second day he brought his ENG cam, as well.
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I do some of that type of shooting but probably less often than you and we often are shooting rental 2/3" cameras. But I no longer own one, don't want to own one and for this gig yesterday, I would have had the same issue as far as size and weight, I was shooting shoulder to shoulder with thousands of show attendees, I would have had the same issues as far as fitting into the scrum. When I spoke about zooms, it was more the move and less about the lens. I use servo zooms and still zooms weekly but more as a variable prime, the zooming part of the moves are rarely used as to me, they are an effect. I am much more used to shooting coverage and editing it together or handing it to editors who expect wide, medium, CU, reverse, reaction, etc. rather than one move that encompasses all of those shots. But I don't shoot live TV much anymore where that is the norm. I'd love to have the 17-120, great investment, but out of my current budget whereas I could work with the 18-80 which is in my general budget area.

I agree, large sensor cameras are a hindrance for events. A small-sensor shoulder mounted ENG camera would have been the right tool but client was low budget, wouldn't have paid for the rental charge and prefers me to shoot what I own and what I own are large sensor cameras. As I wrote, these gigs only come up once or twice a year for me generally, this was the second one this year so hopefully no more live event shoots! ;-) Need the money and work but they are such a PITA, first fifteen hour day I have done in a long time. I like producers who are like me when I produce, I don't push crews past 12 hours really except under exceptional circumstances because I know quality goes down and risk goes up after 12 hours.
 
Reading a lot of your other posts, it sounds like you've been really contemplating the 18-80 and a lot of what you do shoot is still "event style". BTS on movies and shows is still pretty much like shooting an event(sports, concerts, corporate conventions, etc.). It's all the same. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you've at least alluded to that even one of the T4.4 zooms would really benefit you in a lot of your shooting. It's not JUST about the client. You have to shoot it. I bought my zoom more for me than anyone.
 
All I want is a Full Frame 11-400mm f/1.4 constant aperture parfocal autofocus servo zoom lens that weighs 2 pounds and costs less than $1000. Is that too much to ask for?

But seriously, renting the 18-80 lens seems like the best option if you don't want to go the 2/3" broadcast camera route. You can clean up noise in post, but you can't fix janky zoom motion after the fact.
 
I agree with R&G's post #5 in this thread... right tool for right job. But perhaps my only add to it - is you should educate your client as well.
I wear a producer's hat at times and I want the equivalent light output of a 1600hmi (of course very soft though) for a indoor shot I have envisioned in my head - with details viewable outside the window with full daylight - but my budget doesn't allow for the light or even a 1 ton grip truck. If you take that theoretical gig and shoot with small light pkg or avail light, chances are I'm not going to be happy with the outcome and I'm going to blame you, not my small budget unless you explain the difference to me ahead of time...

Often a camera gets spec'd or requested based on nothing more than "we used it last time" or so and so shot that video using that camera. Can you please this client by shooting smaller sensor / fixed lens combo?.... maybe. Are all clients worth educating?....well, that's a whole other topic...
 
Do any of those fixed lens cameras solve the low light issue though? Not saying they can't as I havent looked at specs, but I'd doubt they could stand up in those conditions.
 
First win: A producer client who can articulate what they want and why (e.g., faster edits fewer cuts). As Napoleon would say, Lucky!

So my take as an occasional camop and regular producer/whiner... rent a zoom to work with your C-- cameras. That way, in the heat of the gig, your only new variable will be the lens; you'll already know how far you can press ISO in the particular conditions you're facing, the menu structure, etc. Sure, it's not that hard to learn your way around a new camera (think how many you've worked with in the past). But still...working with your main cameras seems like a distinct advantage...especially if it's only for a few gigs a year in E3 conditions. As a producer, I usually let the camop/DP choose the camera and then I expect him/her to know the thing front-to-back and not need to refer to a manual, hunt through menus, etc.

Also, do those fixed-lens cameras get as wide as you'd like?

As for which lens... are you following the "Behind The Lens" series on Abelcine's blog? Matt Porwoll is reviewing about a dozen current/new zooms for "documentary" filmmaking (ie- not for sloth-like narrative filmmaking ;-) ). There are a couple likely suspects missing (that perhaps he'll get to) and he hasn't published findings on every lens on his original list yet...but it looks like a decent endeavor, even factoring in that it's for a reseller. Not the final word of course, but a good conversation starter at least...
http://blog.abelcine.com/tag/behind-the-lens/

Well, I'm not saying anything you don't already know. Good luck.
 
Noel Evans said:
Do any of those fixed lens cameras solve the low light issue though? Not saying they can't as I havent looked at specs, but I'd doubt they could stand up in those conditions.
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Good question & point well taken. I haven't researched or looked at any specs in that category myself for some time...
 
Going to suggest it might be outside their budget for an event, however Varicam LT with Cabrio 19-90 would eat it up.
 
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