Cinematographer's rate
- Thread starter Kenneth Lau
- Start date
Shooter
Veteran
Just a note
As in many professions...you are not just getting paid for turning up at the gig (for how ever long it takes).
You are actually getting paid for the time it took you to get enough experience and skills.... to bring to the shoot along with your self.
Its your skills and experience that you get paid for. That is your value to the production.
Some guys get skill and experience very early and others can work a lifetime and never get it.
As in many professions...you are not just getting paid for turning up at the gig (for how ever long it takes).
You are actually getting paid for the time it took you to get enough experience and skills.... to bring to the shoot along with your self.
Its your skills and experience that you get paid for. That is your value to the production.
Some guys get skill and experience very early and others can work a lifetime and never get it.
As a rule to myself, my rates haven't changed in 2 years, I'm about average for my area and market. Some guys get paid more, some less. I started out with $800 as my day rate with an old BetaSP in 1995, and grew from there. As your name and reputation get around you have a little bit more say in your rate.
I've had clients offer me $800 a day using their own stuff, I told them "Sure! $800 now and $600 at the end of the shoot?" They don't realise that they are not paying me for my equipment, like shooter said they are paying me for time skill and experience. Doesn't matter if I'm shooting on a 1908's era VHS camcorder or a Red Epic, the rate stays thee same.
I've had clients offer me $800 a day using their own stuff, I told them "Sure! $800 now and $600 at the end of the shoot?" They don't realise that they are not paying me for my equipment, like shooter said they are paying me for time skill and experience. Doesn't matter if I'm shooting on a 1908's era VHS camcorder or a Red Epic, the rate stays thee same.
JefferyTahl
Active member
exactly! Also, I like to put in the lunch and every two break rule in there for good measure.
stefancolson
Well-known member
My experience is a little different than some of the posters here seeing as I'm a younger guy who's in the earlier stages of my career. I try to suss out what kind of budget the client is working with before throwing rates out there, though I do have a standard rate that I quote people. If the budget seems too low to afford my regular rate I'll often preface the number with something about how I'm negotiable depending on the project and budget. It all depends on what the project is, how difficult the experience is likely to be, who else is on the gig, etc. If I had the leverage and stability to quote a "take it or leave it" rate I would, but it's better to flex on the rates and stay busy than to sit at home not working. More often than not I'm given a number for consideration before I have the chance to quote a rate.
It's also worth mentioning that the market is a big factor. I'm in LA, where on one side of the market top talent is available at top rates, and on the other side there are thousands upon thousands of hopefuls who will take any job for any price. There's a ton of work, but there's even more competition. I've shot high profile jobs for $200/day while providing a ton of gear, and I've shot obscure things that will never be seen for $1,000+/day without providing equipment. If people are approaching you for work all of the time then you are in a better position to dictate the rate, but when you are fighting for work you're a bit more at the mercy of whoever is cutting the checks.
Far more important than negotiating rates at the beginning of your career is forging relationships with producers and companies who value a quality product, who treat their contractors with respect, and who generate a lot of work. There's a whole lot of noise here about the dangers of free work, but some of my best opportunities have been borne out of spec work, favors, and going above and beyond on projects that didn't have the resources to pay for what was necessary. If you can show people that you have integrity and passion for what you do regardless of mitigating circumstances, then your boat will be lifted by the rising tide. If you treat every job as a paycheck then it's very difficult to get repeat work from clients with rising budgets as they can afford more established DPs. Treat the low-budget clients as if they were big-budget clients and they'll remember you when they build their careers and the scope of their projects. An extra couple hundred dollars for a day of work is nothing in the long-term, but every positive relationship you build has the potential to come back to you a hundred fold. I try to look at every job for a new producer/company/agency as an audition for years of future work.
It's also worth mentioning that the market is a big factor. I'm in LA, where on one side of the market top talent is available at top rates, and on the other side there are thousands upon thousands of hopefuls who will take any job for any price. There's a ton of work, but there's even more competition. I've shot high profile jobs for $200/day while providing a ton of gear, and I've shot obscure things that will never be seen for $1,000+/day without providing equipment. If people are approaching you for work all of the time then you are in a better position to dictate the rate, but when you are fighting for work you're a bit more at the mercy of whoever is cutting the checks.
Far more important than negotiating rates at the beginning of your career is forging relationships with producers and companies who value a quality product, who treat their contractors with respect, and who generate a lot of work. There's a whole lot of noise here about the dangers of free work, but some of my best opportunities have been borne out of spec work, favors, and going above and beyond on projects that didn't have the resources to pay for what was necessary. If you can show people that you have integrity and passion for what you do regardless of mitigating circumstances, then your boat will be lifted by the rising tide. If you treat every job as a paycheck then it's very difficult to get repeat work from clients with rising budgets as they can afford more established DPs. Treat the low-budget clients as if they were big-budget clients and they'll remember you when they build their careers and the scope of their projects. An extra couple hundred dollars for a day of work is nothing in the long-term, but every positive relationship you build has the potential to come back to you a hundred fold. I try to look at every job for a new producer/company/agency as an audition for years of future work.
Patryk_Rebisz
Veteran
You have to remember that for every $200/day job you are doing the producer is pocketing the $800/day you are not making ON TOP of their fee.
This goes counter to what is aid above - people who are paying $200 can't be choosers and they most definitely don't value quality (as their rates prove it).
I have opposite experiences - the real jobs come from people who understand value of everyone - including their own - time. The low bailer producers tend to stay in the low ball territory and NEVER raise up.
Yes. AND as a way to establish the rate level that you will work for with that person for the rest of your life - as rates once established never go up because when budgets do go up they hire more established/more expensive DPs.
I think stefancolson has it. All kinds of DPs answered here - I'm on the other side, where I need to hire DPs. I worked as a producer where the budget was already specified, and there was a set amount for the DP - we were shooting an American production in Prague using local talent for below the line. Pretty eye-opening. Very, very talented DPs from Eastern Europe, who worked at a fraction of the price an American DP would charge. Two of them subsequently had careers in the West and worked with major directors (think Oscar winning directors), and got their start with our little films. So yeah, it's not about the money - sorry. It's about where you are in your career. If, as stefancolson says, you are starting out and building relationships, it may make sense to take the job regardless of pay level. But it is, of course a judgment call. If you are asked to do a poorly thought out slasher film that is going nowhere, and not get paid, it's probably a good idea to pass and not waste your time. But if it's an interesting production with interesting people... think about it, it's not about the money in the end. Of course we all got bills to pay - you can't afford to lose money while working, so pick wisely.
When I was in charge of disbursing the money, I was more than happy to pay the DP whatever the rate was, because I liked their work. But I may not always be in that position. If I'm financing my own no-budget production, well, in the worst case I'll DP myself (as countless people do, when starting out) - but if someone comes along and pitches in, you bet I'll feel obligated to that person... the way I won't necessarily if I had to pay "the rate". Because if I am paying "the rate", then if I have a lot more money, I'll just get a top flight DP and not the "rate guy" - but guess what, I'll remember the guy who stepped up to the plate, and I'll do my damnest to hire him and pay him and promote him (her).
So my advice would be - be flexible. If the project is absolutely great, consider doing it for whatever the budget is for your services (assuming you can afford it, and don't have rent due!). Obviously, if you are busy, don't turn down paying work in favor of some pie in the sky. If the project is crap, do it only if it's worth it to you and the pay you well. And so on. So "what's your rate" means to me "depends". Again, that depends on the market and your situation. If you're a pro who is late in his career, and has a mortgage to pay, then yes, they either meet your rate or take a hike. If you are a young guy starting out, and are just sitting around and a great project comes along, consider working for very little.
Remember - there is talent everywhere. Unless you are in a market where you have little competition, you have to make a choice. How special are you to charge a given rate? Because guess what - there's a million DPs in the LA area (where I am), so yeah, taking a hike goes both ways. If you have passion, people will want to work with you and will go out of their way to network with you... I may not have a project at the moment, but hey, my friend does and he's looking for a DP and I recommend you, because I know you're a standup guy... if you're just in it for the money, well, best of luck on your own. Assess your situation and go from there.
When I was in charge of disbursing the money, I was more than happy to pay the DP whatever the rate was, because I liked their work. But I may not always be in that position. If I'm financing my own no-budget production, well, in the worst case I'll DP myself (as countless people do, when starting out) - but if someone comes along and pitches in, you bet I'll feel obligated to that person... the way I won't necessarily if I had to pay "the rate". Because if I am paying "the rate", then if I have a lot more money, I'll just get a top flight DP and not the "rate guy" - but guess what, I'll remember the guy who stepped up to the plate, and I'll do my damnest to hire him and pay him and promote him (her).
So my advice would be - be flexible. If the project is absolutely great, consider doing it for whatever the budget is for your services (assuming you can afford it, and don't have rent due!). Obviously, if you are busy, don't turn down paying work in favor of some pie in the sky. If the project is crap, do it only if it's worth it to you and the pay you well. And so on. So "what's your rate" means to me "depends". Again, that depends on the market and your situation. If you're a pro who is late in his career, and has a mortgage to pay, then yes, they either meet your rate or take a hike. If you are a young guy starting out, and are just sitting around and a great project comes along, consider working for very little.
Remember - there is talent everywhere. Unless you are in a market where you have little competition, you have to make a choice. How special are you to charge a given rate? Because guess what - there's a million DPs in the LA area (where I am), so yeah, taking a hike goes both ways. If you have passion, people will want to work with you and will go out of their way to network with you... I may not have a project at the moment, but hey, my friend does and he's looking for a DP and I recommend you, because I know you're a standup guy... if you're just in it for the money, well, best of luck on your own. Assess your situation and go from there.
I haven't read everything in this thread, but I would say a rate SHOULD be partially based on what you're bringing, gear-wise, to a shoot. Why should a client pay the same if they're supplying camera/lights/audio etc. vs whether you are? I was always taught that if you are bringing gear, the client is, in effect, "renting" your gear. So you charge for that. Likewise, if you come alone, that would incur a different lesser rate. Many folks I know line item everything, and to me it's the only fair thing to do and the thing that makes sense. I cost x per day. My camera costs x per day. My audio gear costs x per day. My lights cost x per day. Anything can be added to "the package", and anything can be removed. Totally fair, totally logical, everybody wins. I don't see why that's so controversial.
gkantziper
Esteemed Member
If you are shooting corporate work or some types of broadcast TV, look to the national crewing agencies for guidance on rates. They book thousands of jobs a year and stay within a fairly consistant rate structure. Other than that as a reference, you just have to find the strength to ask what the budget is for each new job/client and then say, "I'll get you a formal estimate shortly." Then, hang up and think. Take as much time as you dare. Once you've decided on a rate, put it in professional software like Quickbooks, change the header from "Invoice" to "Estimate" and send it to the prospective client. Then follow up...in person if possible.
stefancolson
Well-known member
I hear this all of the time, and frankly it's normally not applicable at all. I'm not talking about doing a job for $200 when there's money to pay more. I don't run around underbidding everything and working for far less than I'm worth. What I DO do, is take jobs that don't have enough of a budget to pay going rates. The people that I'm working for in this scenario are usually either in the beginning stages of their own careers, or the projects are riskier or more personal. Often times these jobs don't lead to anything additional or the people whom you're working for might not even still be working in a couple of years, but on the occasions when these do foster long-term relationships it pays off in spades. I did 3 features for a company this year off of a connection I made by working 5 free days for a director more than three years ago. On top of that while many of my peers are sitting around bitching about the glut of $200/day jobs, I've racked up nearly an additional 1,000 hours of experience by taking them this year alone. How many techniques do you think I've picked up over that time. How much more refined do you think my skills have gotten by doing that? Low-pay situations can still be mutually beneficial. And if I get the sense that the rates are low in an effort to line someone's pockets I say no, because I make a point of not working for unethical people.
You might live in a magical world where everyone with talent and integrity has money, but I do not. Sometimes people are offering $200 because it's all they have to offer. You'd be a fool to take big-budget work for low-budget prices, but there are lots of dedicated, passionate producers out there who are still in a phase of their career where they don't have access to great budgets, and you'd better believe that some of them will go on to bigger and better things. If you want to ignore this segment of the market then you are effectively ignoring the current pool of young, unsigned talent.
Again, you need to be able to see the difference between someone who can't afford to pay you more and someone who doesn't WANT to pay you more. I absolutely recommend staying away from lowball producers, because there are people out there who just want ANY product for as little money as possible. These sorts of scenarios never end well and never lead to anything but more opportunity to be exploited. But people who are starting out or who are working with low budgets WILL pay more as they are able, and if you can make a strong impression you will continue to work in better quality projects as they grow in their careers.
This is where the real challenge lies. Quite a few people will simply reach out to more established DPs as their budgets grow, so that's where it's on you to prove yourself. I've had producers fight for me over significantly more experienced DPs because I dedicate myself to every job that I'm on, regardless of pay. I go above and beyond EVERY time. I work longer and harder than the competition, and I put more thought and care into my work than the competition. If I take a one-day job for $200 I treat it as if I was making $1k/day for a month. It's not enough to deliver a product that looks good. You have to deliver a product that compares to the person they would hire if they had triple the budget, and you have to deliver it faster than they would with less equipment and for less money. Make it impossible for the producers to not hire you by being better than anyone they've worked with. Be more pleasant on set. Respond to emails faster. Make their experience with you the best experience they've ever had with a DP. If you can do that, when the budgets get higher you'll still have a job.
This is where it's important to quote a solid rate but be willing to be flexible. Even if I take a $200 job I tell the client my usual rate. Make sure they know what you normally work for (or would like to normally get). Put yourself in the shoes of a producer. If I've hired someone in the past for $200/day and I like their work, but now I have $1k/day and I can get someone better for that price, why would I stick with the cheaper guy? At the end of the day, the people with the money don't want an unproven risk as the DP. If you are young and less experienced you have to be twice as good. You have to deliver like a $2-3k DP when you're making $1k if you want to have a prayer against someone who's got 100 IMDB credits and 25 years of experience.
It was said in this thread that skill and experience is what gets us paid. By taking cheap jobs (and even free jobs at times) when better paying ones weren't available I spent almost 2,000 hours shooting last year. You'd better believe I spent all of that time in focused practice, honing my craft and working my technique. How many years do you think it would have taken to get that same number of working hours if I only took jobs at my full rate? I don't want to be the best paid DP, I want to be the BEST DP. Everything else will take care of itself. When you're in the early parts of your career just say yes to everyone, spend as much time as humanly possible on your craft, and make sure that you are improving yourself at every step. Be the nicest guy on set, the most punctual guy on set, the hardest-working guy on set, the most prepared guy on set, the most focused guy on set, and make sure to pay attention and always learn from every experience and soon you will be well connected, appreciated, consistently busy, and well-paid.
Kegan
Spam Assassin Mod
As an independent producer, I'm really happy that there are guys like stefancolson. I've been in a position where I could only afford the $200-300/day DPs for projects and now, I'm at a stage where I can offer them $500-750+/day. Do I use the same people? You're damn right I do... because these are the guys that believed that I was doing the best I could with the budgets I had to work with.
When my budgets inflate, I'll be able to pay them what they deserve but for now, I'm lucky enough to work with very talented people because I'm upfront about what the project entails and what they're getting themselves into.
Kegan
When my budgets inflate, I'll be able to pay them what they deserve but for now, I'm lucky enough to work with very talented people because I'm upfront about what the project entails and what they're getting themselves into.
Kegan
Shooter
Veteran
If you supply gear as well as your services as a D.P (or whatever)...you present the two items as separate costs.
A production company splits these out to separate sections of their budget.
eg Equipment, Crew
For everyones benefit it pays to know what things cost individually.
This is why it's so hard to compete in Los Angeles as a cinematographer:
[h=2]For LAPD Officer, the eight-square-block section of skid row that is his beat feeds his other passion - making movies. [/h]Basically the LA cop has no money, and he's making the film from donations, free locations provided by people and businesses, and this is how his DP came onboard:
"The film's director of photography, David Frederick, has been a Hollywood camera operator since 1987. His credits include the films "The Soloist" and "Muppets From Space," and the TV series "Northern Exposure.""I met David through Mary," he said. "She told me, 'You wouldn't want to do it because there's no pay.' But then I heard what the film is about."
Frederick arranged to borrow about $250,000 worth of newly released Canon EOS C 300 professional cinema cameras and lenses. It helped, he joked, that he produced this month's 2013 Lifetime Achievement Awards show for the Society of Camera Operators."
So not only is the DP doing the film for free, just because he likes the project, but he's borrowing quarter million dollar bunch of camera equipment to do so. And he's a working professional. Now imagine this sorry-@$$ budget movie (all donations) comes along and asks you to be a DP and you start giving quotes, lol! With competition like this, you don't stand a ghost of a chance.
People have got to eat and got bills to pay - how can you afford to work for free? Obviously, you can't, unless you are in a special situation. When the supply of DPs is so huge, as in Los Angeles, it's tough all the way around. That's why every project and every situation is different. If there's a great project that's zero-budget and you believe in it for whatever reason, you might take a risk, but otherwise you gotta get paid or you starve to death.
[h=2]For LAPD Officer, the eight-square-block section of skid row that is his beat feeds his other passion - making movies. [/h]Basically the LA cop has no money, and he's making the film from donations, free locations provided by people and businesses, and this is how his DP came onboard:
"The film's director of photography, David Frederick, has been a Hollywood camera operator since 1987. His credits include the films "The Soloist" and "Muppets From Space," and the TV series "Northern Exposure.""I met David through Mary," he said. "She told me, 'You wouldn't want to do it because there's no pay.' But then I heard what the film is about."
Frederick arranged to borrow about $250,000 worth of newly released Canon EOS C 300 professional cinema cameras and lenses. It helped, he joked, that he produced this month's 2013 Lifetime Achievement Awards show for the Society of Camera Operators."
So not only is the DP doing the film for free, just because he likes the project, but he's borrowing quarter million dollar bunch of camera equipment to do so. And he's a working professional. Now imagine this sorry-@$$ budget movie (all donations) comes along and asks you to be a DP and you start giving quotes, lol! With competition like this, you don't stand a ghost of a chance.
People have got to eat and got bills to pay - how can you afford to work for free? Obviously, you can't, unless you are in a special situation. When the supply of DPs is so huge, as in Los Angeles, it's tough all the way around. That's why every project and every situation is different. If there's a great project that's zero-budget and you believe in it for whatever reason, you might take a risk, but otherwise you gotta get paid or you starve to death.
stefancolson
Well-known member
You're spot on. I've been up against DPs with wide-release theatrical features under their belts for shockingly low-paid gigs. That's why it's so important to plant seeds everywhere. The more people you work with and the more relationships you establish (as long as you're making excellent impressions), the more likely you are to get a leg up in landing better work in the coming years. Youth and a career in the building stages can be made to work to your advantage. If you show people that you are enthusiastic, thoughtful, talented/skilled, and hungry then you can be an attractive option compared to more of a vet. How many union guys will still be busting their asses after 18 hours? How many union guys will crawl through mud for a shot, or wade out into a lake? How many union guys will enthusiastically put in weeks of prep for no pay? Obviously these aren't sustainable ways to work for your whole career, but being damn sure that you work harder and longer than the competition is a good way to get your foot in the door, as long as you are mindful of not being taken advantage of. Sometimes it sucks, sometimes it's not fair, and sometimes the thought of another cup of noodles for dinner is enough to make you want to throw yourself out of a moving vehicle, but you have to decide for yourself if the sacrifices are worth the payoff or not. It's hard to watch your friends making great money, buying homes, and taking vacations when you're digging under the seats in your car to find change to buy toilet paper (true story), but if those things are important to you then there are much better, more reliable ways to make money than being behind a camera.
To make a long story short, do you have a today mindset or a long-term mindset? Are you willing to pay your dues or do you expect to be treated like a CEO when you're barely middle-management? Making rent each month is important (and scary-as-$*!t a lot of the time), but when you're in your twenties you have the luxury of focusing more on where you'll be in 5 or 10 years than you will at any other point in your career. An old professor once told me that making it means competing with people who are willing to sleep in their cars. It's true. No matter who you are or what you do there's always someone with more talent, skill, and dedication who you have to compete with. There's no room for mediocrity. There's a great Ed Macauley quote that's very relevant: "When you are not practicing, remember, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you meet he will win".
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
There are some solid points being made all around. I do believe that a lot of newer people to the industry are going to probably end up giving away more than they should, because producers are more savvy than ever when it comes to getting things for free. The fact that it is becoming nearly mandatory for a budding DP to own a camera package is proof of this. However, the reality is that I hear more and more horror stories about DP's on low budget shows floundering.
Things are changing and I can't apply everything from my past to the present and/or the future. But I do know this: of all the freebies that I have done, a very small percentage have paid off in terms of future relationships. The reality is that only a minute number of directors on those things ever went on to do become working directors. Nearly all of my regular relationships now came through "legit" work; yes, possibly low budget but not giveaways. Free often only begets free.
I have personally only shot three features, and part of the reason for that is that the vast majority of scripts that I read were pretty awful. Couple that with miniscule budgets and no names, and the odds are overwhelming that the film itself is going to be dreck. If one considers that "practicing", as Stefan describes in the quote, then no problem, as long as one has no expectations further than that. At a certain point, though, it does become a bit pointless. I have a friend who has shot probably 20 low budget films, none of which have led to better paying jobs. Of all the movies I turned down, I've had no regrets as none of them have made a mark. Feature #3, by the way, is being released theatrically this fall--not saying this to brag, but to indicate that holding out for the legit work, a solid script and cast, was a worthwhile choice. Again; this is sort of advice from above and I know it's like "nice work if you can get it" etc. but I'm just sayin...keep an eye on how much you give away, because sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Eh, it's probably pointless. I wouldn't have listened to me when I was starting out either. Shooter, let's you and me go get a drink and talk about the ol' days!
Things are changing and I can't apply everything from my past to the present and/or the future. But I do know this: of all the freebies that I have done, a very small percentage have paid off in terms of future relationships. The reality is that only a minute number of directors on those things ever went on to do become working directors. Nearly all of my regular relationships now came through "legit" work; yes, possibly low budget but not giveaways. Free often only begets free.
I have personally only shot three features, and part of the reason for that is that the vast majority of scripts that I read were pretty awful. Couple that with miniscule budgets and no names, and the odds are overwhelming that the film itself is going to be dreck. If one considers that "practicing", as Stefan describes in the quote, then no problem, as long as one has no expectations further than that. At a certain point, though, it does become a bit pointless. I have a friend who has shot probably 20 low budget films, none of which have led to better paying jobs. Of all the movies I turned down, I've had no regrets as none of them have made a mark. Feature #3, by the way, is being released theatrically this fall--not saying this to brag, but to indicate that holding out for the legit work, a solid script and cast, was a worthwhile choice. Again; this is sort of advice from above and I know it's like "nice work if you can get it" etc. but I'm just sayin...keep an eye on how much you give away, because sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Eh, it's probably pointless. I wouldn't have listened to me when I was starting out either. Shooter, let's you and me go get a drink and talk about the ol' days!
Exactly. When you're young, without a family to support and a big mortgage, is when you sacrifice - you do it, so that, as stefancolson says, you spread the seeds and build relationships everywhere, and when you are a bit older and have bills to pay, now you reap the harvest of those seeds and then you're getting paid, paid, paid. Of course, as CharlesPapert points out, and I did too in my first post to this thread, unfortunately, you have to pick carefully where you sacrifice - once you've build up a bit of skill, you should absolutely ignore dreck scripts unless they pay. And that's where the hard part comes... it's a bit of a dirty secret that many DPs (not all!) are not super good at telling which project is worthwhile and which not (which is why it is relatively fewer DPs that transition successfully to directing compared to writers or editors). Like Charles says: "the vast majority of scripts that I read were pretty awful" - absolutely right. It's called Sturgeons Law ("90% of everything is crap") - that goes double for scripts (99.999% of scripts are utter crap). Don't do those for free (unless you're simply trying to practice some skills). But it gets worse... sometimes directors who became masters had mediocre (or even pretty bad) first films... now what? Yeah, there's a bit of luck involved.
Basically, if you're young and just starting out and need to practice your DP skills, it's OK to do stuff for little to no money; it is also OK to do stuff for little to no money if otherwise you'd just be sitting around not getting paid anyway; and finally, it is OK to do stuff for little or no money if an exceptional script or opportunity comes along and you want to build a relationship or get something onto your resume/reel. It's called paying your dues.
BUT
once you've paid your dues, you can expect to now cash in - call in your chits, work those relationships, keep busy and get paid. Nobody should work for free and expect to make a career out of it beyond doing so as an apprentice stage.
Basically, if you're young and just starting out and need to practice your DP skills, it's OK to do stuff for little to no money; it is also OK to do stuff for little to no money if otherwise you'd just be sitting around not getting paid anyway; and finally, it is OK to do stuff for little or no money if an exceptional script or opportunity comes along and you want to build a relationship or get something onto your resume/reel. It's called paying your dues.
BUT
once you've paid your dues, you can expect to now cash in - call in your chits, work those relationships, keep busy and get paid. Nobody should work for free and expect to make a career out of it beyond doing so as an apprentice stage.
stefancolson
Well-known member
It's definitely really tough to draw lines right now just starting out as a DP, and it's something that I spend quite a bit of time thinking about. When I first started I would just say yes to everything, and while it did help to give me a lot of experience in a small amount of time, you do hit a point of diminishing returns really quickly. I do less free work every year, and the rates I work for are better every year than the year prior, but I still do things on the cheap or free when I'm either sitting on my hands at home with nothing to do or when I believe in the people involved or the project itself. Most free jobs I've done have gone nowhere, and a very healthy percentage of the really cheap work I've done have been one-off experiences with clients or a trail of poor working conditions. I've been lied to by producers, asked to do things that were wildly unsafe (that's one situation in which you always draw the line, no shot or paycheck is worth your life or safety), worked literally 40+ hours in a row more times than I can remember, and exposed to some pretty horrific situations. You do get a lot of knowledge about what not to do, and the smaller the production the more likely you'll be able to learn about the work done in other departments (which can only help).
It's true that the vast majority of free and cheap work results in nothing after the job is finished (other than more offers for free or really cheap work). I make it a point to not work for free when other people are making money or when the product has a clear path to profitability for the producers. Free work is reserved for passion or non-commercial projects, and the more offers I have the more choosy I can be about what I take. I will say however, that one very difficult, free job I did a few years ago was directly responsible, through the resultant relationships, in more than $30k of work I had last year. If you plant 50 seeds and only one sprouts, then you still will reap the benefits many times over, particularly if you bust your ass to impress. Success is largely luck. You have to be skilled enough to run with any opportunities you may get, but getting that "break" to begin with is largely luck. The more you play, the more likely you are to win - even if each individual roll of the dice has abysmal odds.
The cold, hard, reality is that if I were reasonably selective about the work I took when I was just starting, I would probably still be bartending or working some other part time job on the side to make ends meet. I may have struggled, and I may live a relatively meager existence right now, but I've been able to make a living doing what moves me without taking any non-film jobs for years. Everything I do is in the goal of reaching a position in my career (sooner rather than later) where I can be more selective and spend my time on quality projects.
I really respect your point of view, Charles. You're one of the voices on this forum that I hold in very high regard (tons of respect for your work as a DP, camera operator, and steadicam operator), and when you speak about your career I certainly do listen and carefully consider your points. I have given a lot of thought to my impact on the market and my colleagues when I take work for low rates or provide gear without an extra charge, and I try to be mindful in all of those decisions. Integrity is very important to me, and I certainly don't want to have a net-negative impact as a result of my actions.
I will say that what works for me is probably more specific to my situation than it is applicable to all of my peers. I was a breath away from starting law school when I decided to become a cinematographer at 24 after a project for which I picked up a camera for the first time ever. I didn't go to film school. I had zero contacts not just in LA or the film industry, but with anyone who did anything related to film/video production. All I had was a new passion, an internet connection, and an HV20. I made a deal with myself that the first four years of my career would be thought of as my own personal film school, where I would concentrate on improving my craft above all else. I knew that time would be incredibly difficult, but I was convinced that I could do more for myself in that time through single-minded practice and devotion than I would gain by taking out a bunch of loans and going back to school. I already have a B.M. (Bachelor of Music) and spent 10 years scraping by as a jazz musician and recording engineer, so I didn't really see much appeal in getting another non-bankable degree and putting off the beginning of my professional career. I bought a 5DmkII (which seemed like an unimaginably high-end camera to me at the time) and haven't looked back.
It's now 3 and a half years later and I'm further along than I thought I would be. I'm making better rates than last year by far, and I'm being trusted with bigger and bigger productions. 3 years ago I would never have believed that I'd be trusted with productions that cost many hundreds of thousands of dollars this soon, sometimes making four figures a day, or that I'd be working with the Alexa or Epic much more often than with DSLRs. I'm proud of what I've accomplished and the huge pile of toil and hard work that is behind it. The projects are getting bigger, the hours are getting shorter, the rates are getting higher, and I'm earning the trust and respect of more and more people. I'm choosier now than I was last year, but I won't let up until I can either add those three letters to the end of my name or until I can stand behind an impressive body of work and offers the way that someone like Charles can. I hope it doesn't come to that, but I'm willing to sleep in my car if that's what it takes. Maybe I'm still just naive, or maybe I'm stubborn to a fault, but I'm going to get to where I want to be no matter what it takes. The work itself, the experience of being on a set with a crew you enjoy, and the luxury of spending my life creating things that move me is worth far more than the paychecks I'd be getting as a first year attorney had I walked a different path.
It's true that the vast majority of free and cheap work results in nothing after the job is finished (other than more offers for free or really cheap work). I make it a point to not work for free when other people are making money or when the product has a clear path to profitability for the producers. Free work is reserved for passion or non-commercial projects, and the more offers I have the more choosy I can be about what I take. I will say however, that one very difficult, free job I did a few years ago was directly responsible, through the resultant relationships, in more than $30k of work I had last year. If you plant 50 seeds and only one sprouts, then you still will reap the benefits many times over, particularly if you bust your ass to impress. Success is largely luck. You have to be skilled enough to run with any opportunities you may get, but getting that "break" to begin with is largely luck. The more you play, the more likely you are to win - even if each individual roll of the dice has abysmal odds.
The cold, hard, reality is that if I were reasonably selective about the work I took when I was just starting, I would probably still be bartending or working some other part time job on the side to make ends meet. I may have struggled, and I may live a relatively meager existence right now, but I've been able to make a living doing what moves me without taking any non-film jobs for years. Everything I do is in the goal of reaching a position in my career (sooner rather than later) where I can be more selective and spend my time on quality projects.
I really respect your point of view, Charles. You're one of the voices on this forum that I hold in very high regard (tons of respect for your work as a DP, camera operator, and steadicam operator), and when you speak about your career I certainly do listen and carefully consider your points. I have given a lot of thought to my impact on the market and my colleagues when I take work for low rates or provide gear without an extra charge, and I try to be mindful in all of those decisions. Integrity is very important to me, and I certainly don't want to have a net-negative impact as a result of my actions.
I will say that what works for me is probably more specific to my situation than it is applicable to all of my peers. I was a breath away from starting law school when I decided to become a cinematographer at 24 after a project for which I picked up a camera for the first time ever. I didn't go to film school. I had zero contacts not just in LA or the film industry, but with anyone who did anything related to film/video production. All I had was a new passion, an internet connection, and an HV20. I made a deal with myself that the first four years of my career would be thought of as my own personal film school, where I would concentrate on improving my craft above all else. I knew that time would be incredibly difficult, but I was convinced that I could do more for myself in that time through single-minded practice and devotion than I would gain by taking out a bunch of loans and going back to school. I already have a B.M. (Bachelor of Music) and spent 10 years scraping by as a jazz musician and recording engineer, so I didn't really see much appeal in getting another non-bankable degree and putting off the beginning of my professional career. I bought a 5DmkII (which seemed like an unimaginably high-end camera to me at the time) and haven't looked back.
It's now 3 and a half years later and I'm further along than I thought I would be. I'm making better rates than last year by far, and I'm being trusted with bigger and bigger productions. 3 years ago I would never have believed that I'd be trusted with productions that cost many hundreds of thousands of dollars this soon, sometimes making four figures a day, or that I'd be working with the Alexa or Epic much more often than with DSLRs. I'm proud of what I've accomplished and the huge pile of toil and hard work that is behind it. The projects are getting bigger, the hours are getting shorter, the rates are getting higher, and I'm earning the trust and respect of more and more people. I'm choosier now than I was last year, but I won't let up until I can either add those three letters to the end of my name or until I can stand behind an impressive body of work and offers the way that someone like Charles can. I hope it doesn't come to that, but I'm willing to sleep in my car if that's what it takes. Maybe I'm still just naive, or maybe I'm stubborn to a fault, but I'm going to get to where I want to be no matter what it takes. The work itself, the experience of being on a set with a crew you enjoy, and the luxury of spending my life creating things that move me is worth far more than the paychecks I'd be getting as a first year attorney had I walked a different path.
Another question... revisiting this thread... not necessarily how much you charge, but what would constitute a good reason to raise prices (not including gear upgrades).
What job would I have to land, or what approach/thinking can I apply to raise my rate?
when is it appropriate to go from x to 2x?
What job would I have to land, or what approach/thinking can I apply to raise my rate?
when is it appropriate to go from x to 2x?
Does anyone have any advice for finding more clients? My new commercial and corporate reels I'm cutting kick ass and should be among the best in the area for owner/ops (obviously I can't compete with production companies that have motion graphics and helicopter shots, but in terms of composition and exposure and lighting I'm embarrassing the rest of my price range), but I don't have a network, just a few clients at the moment. I've tried asking on craigslist and looking for referrals, but I have no network. To be fair my networking skills are terrible? As an owner/op trying to get into more corporate and commercial work, how does one progress? How do you meet new people to work with. Again, I'm cutting reels that max out the quality of production viable at this budget level (near-perfect work within the context of the scale of the shot) so that's no concern.
Fwiw, I think $500/day with no gear is a very high day rate for someone just getting started. Unless you're luck you'll need to accept a loss and shoot on spec to start and make your money as an AC (which helps with networking, my problem is no one will hire me as an AC since I have no experience in that either).
Fwiw, I think $500/day with no gear is a very high day rate for someone just getting started. Unless you're luck you'll need to accept a loss and shoot on spec to start and make your money as an AC (which helps with networking, my problem is no one will hire me as an AC since I have no experience in that either).
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