CineForm

Green Hornet said:
That price is getting close, but still not low enough for me to jump in.
All the resolution is nice, I almost bought Aspect HD, untill I realized that Prospect HD was really what I thought Aspect HD was.

The price is just too much for me.
I can't see many paying for Prospect HD being that it is only a codec, and it's more than the editing software you also need.

Bring the price down more. I want it, but don't NEED it.
Click to expand...

It much more than a codec, if you wanted that alone it costs $199 for the 8-bit version and $799 for the 10-bit. The additonal pricing for Prospect HD is for significant workflow enhancements, real-time pipeline, deep pixel processing, real-time effects etc, and pretty decent support. In the end you are paying for the for a complete workflow, rather than just a codec (which we happen to have a very good one -- it just isn't all we're about.)
 
Hi David,

a) Is there a diference between a CineForm avi that is made from DVCPRO-HD 1080i 25p and a CineForm avi made from HDV 1080i 25CF ? How many Mbps is each ? I thought if your output setting are the same shouldn't be any diference, but second option seems faster/more stable. Guess what: I am confused ! :)

b) I decided to go with Aspect HD Premiere Pro2 Sony HDR fx1e solution for now, and I will have more news for the board next week. I am going to shoot CineFrame 25 1080i and downscale in post 1280X720 mainly for the square pixel ratio that you suggest that is better for post rather to save space. My only question left (probably) is if changing the fps 25>24 from the begining is the best way to go. I need the most flexible master I can get and I havent manage to uderstand what this should be.

c) why there is not any option to convert CineForm avis (to a new size, fps etc) ?

d) I read somewhere that there was a slow motion efect with Aspect-HD, is/was
that a fact, I cannot find it anywhere.

Thanks
Andreas
 
David Newman said:
It much more than a codec, if you wanted that alone it costs $199 for the 8-bit version and $799 for the 10-bit. The additonal pricing for Prospect HD is for significant workflow enhancements, real-time pipeline, deep pixel processing, real-time effects etc, and pretty decent support. In the end you are paying for the for a complete workflow, rather than just a codec (which we happen to have a very good one -- it just isn't all we're about.)
Click to expand...


Which 10 bit product is $799?
 
Andreas said:
Hi David,

a) Is there a diference between a CineForm avi that is made from DVCPRO-HD 1080i 25p and a CineForm avi made from HDV 1080i 25CF ? How many Mbps is each ? I thought if your output setting are the same shouldn't be any diference, but second option seems faster/more stable. Guess what: I am confused ! :)
Click to expand...

CineForm Intermiedate is a VBR codec so the output size depends on the source image -- data rate will vary on the type image much less than whether it is sourced from HDV or P2. Once in CineForm both will work equally well.

b) I decided to go with Aspect HD Premiere Pro2 Sony HDR fx1e solution for now, and I will have more news for the board next week. I am going to shoot CineFrame 25 1080i and downscale in post 1280X720 mainly for the square pixel ratio that you suggest that is better for post rather to save space. My only question left (probably) is if changing the fps 25>24 from the begining is the best way toc) why there is not any option to convert CineForm avis (to a new size, fps etc) ?
Click to expand...

HDLink will convert P2 or HDV to CineForm with a resize and a frame rate conversion, haven't yet done a CineForm to CineForm conversion, it is planned however.

d) I read somewhere that there was a slow motion efect with Aspect-HD, is/was
that a fact, I cannot find it anywhere.
Click to expand...

Aspect HD and Prospect HD supports real-time non-frame blended slow motion when used within Premiere Pro. Simply set the playback speed.
 
Green Hornet said:
Which 10 bit product is $799?
Click to expand...

On a side note: Aspect HD user can upgrade to Prospect HD for $800 this month -- the is a complete 10-bit product that retails for $1499 (as a new customer it is only $1299 this month.)

The 10-bit codec only product is Prospect HD-Codecs it is available for $799, is not in the online store as we primarily sell that to effects houses as a special order when they need a 10-bit codec for After Effects. I think is also offered as an additional bundle with Prospect HD-Edit/Ingest for $500 per codec seat. This product to become more visible when we ship the multi-platform Quicktime version of the CineForm codecs, as we think there will be many multiple platform effects projects.
 
David Newman said:
On a side note: Aspect HD user can upgrade to Prospect HD for $800 this month -- the is a complete 10-bit product that retails for $1499 (as a new customer it is only $1299 this month.)

The 10-bit codec only product is Prospect HD-Codecs it is available for $799, is not in the online store as we primarily sell that to effects houses as a special order when they need a 10-bit codec for After Effects. I think is also offered as an additional bundle with Prospect HD-Edit/Ingest for $500 per codec seat. This product to become more visible when we ship the multi-platform Quicktime version of the CineForm codecs, as we think there will be many multiple platform effects projects.
Click to expand...


So what is the difference between the $799 10 bit software and Prospect HD?
I just want to use premiere @1920x1080 and be able to have access to all 4 channels of audio in a format that I can edit if I am not at my computer.
 
Green Hornet said:
So what is the difference between the $799 10 bit software and Prospect HD?
I just want to use premiere @1920x1080 and be able to have access to all 4 channels of audio in a format that I can edit if I am not at my computer.
Click to expand...

Prospect HD enables Premiere Pro to use a 10-bit codec in a real-time workflow. If you had any average codec (or uncompressed), Premiere Pro and HDSDI card, nothing much is real-time. Yet with Prospect HD you get a real-time pipeline which is like having an HD hardware accelerator. So for $799 you get a hot codec for doing composites with, for $1499 you get to play and mix multiple streams of those resulting composits in real-time, and output in 10-bit for excellent quality (plus a hot codec for compositing.) You want Prospect HD.
 
David Newman said:
This product to become more visible when we ship the multi-platform Quicktime version of the CineForm codecs, as we think there will be many multiple platform effects projects.
Click to expand...

Any idea on a release date for the Mac/Quicktime version?
 
The quicktime version is going very well. We have real-time playback of CineForm MOV files on the Mac for a few weeks now. There is still many things to complete before it fully released around September.
 
David Newman said:
Prospect HD enables Premiere Pro to use a 10-bit codec in a real-time workflow. If you had any average codec (or uncompressed), Premiere Pro and HDSDI card, nothing much is real-time. Yet with Prospect HD you get a real-time pipeline which is like having an HD hardware accelerator. So for $799 you get a hot codec for doing composites with, for $1499 you get to play and mix multiple streams of those resulting composits in real-time, and output in 10-bit for excellent quality (plus a hot codec for compositing.) You want Prospect HD.
Click to expand...


You are right.
I want Prospect HD, but for more than the price of a 8 gig p2 card,
or near the price of a P2 store, I can't justify it as I can already do multiple streams of HD with $800 edius, that also allows me to edit as well.

I feel bad about "complaining" about pricing structures, as I have no right to say what it "should cost". I only break these guidlines when it's a product that I do want, that seems to be not thought through pricing wise.

Anyone with a camera, most likely has:

1) Final cut on a mac, so they don't "need" Prospect HD.
2) Edius on a PC, so they don't "need" Prospect HD.
3) Struggling with Raylight using Premiere, or Vegas, so they are looking for a budget over all else, their likely upgrade path would be to go to edius for $800.

Prospect HD is very nice, and probably the best thing out there, but it doesn't edit by itself, so isn't an upgrade, or a starting platform to edit with. It is a luxury.

That Luxury would fall in line of number 4.
After the basics of the camera, and cards, and 1,2 or 3 options listed above,
Most of us would have shallow pockets, nagging significant others, open mouths to feed, or credit card bills, preventing us from doing option 4 (buying Prospect HD).

Only the most wealthy of us are going to make the plunge.

The way I see it, at $799, it might keep the premiere crowd from going to edius.
anything over that price point, and it is just sugar to those who have all the other stuff and just want that one last item.

I have all the other stuff, and I want Prospect HD like an addict wants drugs, but at the end of the day, I just can't justify it at that price point.

Lowering the price to $1,2xx was a nice gesture, but it's still 12 and change.
 
Green Hornet:

I think you missed the point here. You can edit in 1440X1080 with Aspect HD, no need for the more expensive Prospect HD, in the SAME resolution you work on Edius or whatever NLE. In Edius you CANT edit 1920X1080 neither in any other NLE, you have to uprez first the native 1440X1080. The diference between Aspect and Prospect is that the second during the conversion gives you 1920X1080 with 1:1 square pixels where in Aspect HD, Edius, etc you can work only with the 1440X1080 (PAL) NO sqare pixlels. The point that you missed is that Prospect HD is for someone that needs desparate square pixels in post and the higher resolution possible. The other solution is either edit in 1440X1080 (like edius etc) or downscale to 1280X720 so you have your square pixels and you still have plenty of res for filmout. Plus you are working now 4:2:2 and your Premiere2 finaly works ! And yes, if CineForm considers a drop of the price they will make a lot of people happy, but I think I read somewhere that they recently done that, or am i wrong ?
I repeat for milion time, I am not an expert neither on codecs or pixelcounts, I just bought Aspect HD and I am far away of having valid personal experiance. I give you the info I gahered throught this forums. David Newman is around if I said something incorect.

hope that helps
Andreas
 
Last edited:
Andreas,
You have it. Yes G.H. is not comparing Prospect HD to is equivent in the market. Aspect HD with Premiere Pro is more like the Edius solution (clearly I favor Aspect HD.) Prospect HD is more like an Axio HD solution, although I think PHD is much better and really is a new class of product as no one comes close for price and performance. Why? A compressed 10-bit post on-line real-time solution is rare, only CineForm Prospect HD and to a lesser extent with Avid DNxHD on some expensive system. Axio HD is only 8-bit when compressed. When someone is not wow'd by the advantages of RT compressed 10-bit, they only need Aspect HD. At the new pricing we hope to convert Aspect HD users to Prospect HD-Edit, by it is not necessary for many productions. PHD is best for work that is needing the best color manipulation without introducing banding (as this shows http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm#10bit.)
 
Last edited:
Well, second thought, the question should be:
Capruring with HDlink we have the option of converting 25>24 (I did so and I kept the corect pitch), while the preset on PremierePro2 AspectHD 1280X720 is 23.976 with no 24p option (so I did edit in 23.976 using the preset) what am I going to export: 24p or 23.976p ? CineForm Export options give me both choices...
Furthermore, High HD optimized should be my choice, or High HD is ok ? Remember that this is for possible filmout and I need the best master possible.

Thanks
Andreas
 
Is it possible to edit 1080 10bit CineForm conversion of DVCPro hd 1080 25p on a Macbook Pro 2.16g on the windows side while I await the introduction of the quicktime version of CineForm Prospect HD?

Also for those that buy the existing version of Prospect Hd will they be able to get a crossgrade (or something similar) price for the quicktime version?

Thanks.
 
I have figure it out after all... I think...

25p>24p is 25p>24p No 23.976 here...

But for some reason there isn't any 24p timebase AspectHD preset on PremierePro2, but it is still 24p so I export to 24p...

Right ?
 
Last edited:
Andreas, I'll let David Newman respond to your conversion Q's.

Peter, we haven't discovered any problems using Prospect HD with the Windows side of Bootcamp. Pricing for our Mac products has not yet been determined, but it seems a reasonable request that existing customers get special pricing consideration when purchasing our future Mac products. As part of the package we'll certainly make wrapper conversion tools available that replaces the AVI wrapper with a QT wrapper (and vice versa). That operation will be very fast because we won't need to touch the compressed streams underneath.
 
In the middle of a 48 hour film competition so I can't answer in detail (I have a moment while an export completes), but I thought there was a 25 -> 23.976 option AND a 25p to 24p. I have to check next week.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top