Choices - 5D3 Raw or BM URSA Mini 4K?

roxics

roxics

Veteran
I'm at that point where I'm considering a camera upgrade in the next few months or so. There is no rush.
I've been shooting with a Canon 60D now for a couple of years and I really do like it. I like the layout and I generally like the results.
As I do both video and stills I need the ability to do both.
However I'm looking for better footage and the ability to play with the color more.

I have three choices I'm considering but these two I'm considering more:

Blackmagic URSA Mini 4K model
I like the bigger true video/cinema camera design here. The built in XLRs, the rotating handgrip, the global shutter, the ability to shoot onboard raw and ProRes. The EF mount means my EF lenses would work although the sensor size is a little smaller. 12 stops of dymanic range should be cool since I've never had that. But it is a more expensive body from the start and will require more expensive CFast cards and v-mount batteries.

Canon 5D mkIII with BM Video Assist
The nice thing here is that it's similar to my 60D in many ways and allows me to shoot full frame stills.
Raw is a hack with magic lantern and I'm a little concerned about relying on a hack for shooting pro stuff and I'm not sure how much is involved to work with this footage compared to BM raw footage.
It also doesn't have XLRs on board or a true video camera style body. So it means I'm bolting stuff on like my H4N and the video assist into a franken camera style setup that I can only imagine will be even more awkward than my current 60D+H4N on top.
But on the flip side the smaller form factor could be beneficial for certain shoots and the ability to go back to H.264 for less critical things is nice. Plus it's a stills camera which means I could sell my 60D to put toward this setup or use it as a second camera on H.264 shoots.
The only thing I don't know (which I hope someone here can answer), will the raw video go out the HDMI port as well so it can go to the Video Assist for ProRes recording or is it strictly recorded to the CF card via magic lantern?

My third option is to pick up a BMPCC since I love the footage off that. But that's a whole new lens setup as I really don't want to spend the money on a speedbooster. But it is a consideration as well. But I think I'd prefer to have a full on video camera setup like an URSA Mini and keep the 60D for stills or a hybrid system that can do nice stills as well like the 5D3.

Any input or considerations I'm not thinking of? I don't really want to jump into a C100 as I like the idea of raw.
 
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5D MK II is being replaced at any moment, so at worst, you might be able to pick up a discounted/discontinued unit shortly.

And, in terms of EF lenses, there are products on the market that will allow the automatic focus and aperture adjustments on any camera (and some will even let you do the faux follow focus as well) that have it.

And the original 2.5K BMCC does have an EF mount version.

Edit : if you go, let's say, the XC-10 route - a $2,500 4K fixed lens Canon camcorder that is just about to hit the store shelves - it can also take stills. It may not be fully suitable for your type of shooting ... but, then again, it may.
 
DLD said:
Edit : if you go, let's say, the XC-10 route - a $2,500 4K fixed lens Canon camcorder that is just about to hit the store shelves - it can also take stills. It may not be fully suitable for your type of shooting ... but, then again, it may.
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Definitely not. It only does jpegs and is a smaller sensor plus a fixed lens. That would be a backward move for stills. Plus I don't care about compressed 4K. I'm looking for raw, even at 1080p. The cameras I pointed out are the cameras I'm considering. I just need to know any possible hangups I may not have thought of.

The original 2.5K BM is also not a consideration just because I don't care for the layout.
 
5D3 RAW has really, really nice colors, the best I've seen straight out of the camera. It has a bit more DR than you're using right now, but not a lot more. It will feel a lot sharper and cleaner, and much more flexible for post color work.

Regarding the Mini, I wouldn't even consider the 4K version. Either go for the 4.6K, which has 3-4 stops more DR than the 5D3+RAW (confirmation pending), or save the money and go for something cheaper (like the pocket, which I think gives nicer images than the BM 4K).

BTW the HDMI out doesn't work with RAW, it's the plain old Canon video, with better codec.
 
Also, the 5D RAW footage is limited to 1080p24. If you want 1080p30 or even 720p60 you are going beyond comfortable data rates. It makes great looking footage, but is a bit limiting compared to the URSA mini specs. URSA mini is an unknown at this point anyway. The 5D has the URSA mini beat by lot though.

Shame the JVC is getting mixed impressions. It falls in the middle of a lot of choices.
 
I don't know if the URSA mini will be like the URSA (same chip?) but that camera is NOT a low light camera.

I shot my last short with the 5D3 raw and loved the results. The colors are gorgeous and 14 bit depth is amazing to have.

5D3 raw does do 1080p30 but not above however I shot 48fps overcrank (720p) and could get about 7-10 second bursts which was good enough for my narrative film making needs. 720p48 looked quite good to my eye.

Low light convinced me to keep the 5D3. That and the vista vision sized chip.

My last two raw projects:

 
Steve Kahn said:
5D3 raw does do 1080p30 but not above however I shot 48fps overcrank (720p) and could get about 7-10 second bursts which was good enough for my narrative film making needs. 720p48 looked quite good to my eye.
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I've gotten 60p out though you need to drop the res a bit (and it shoots a quite funky resolution that you have to scale). But it works and it's raw. Yay!
 
Just out of curiousity, what are the drawbacks to the 5D mark II (5D2)? I know it doesn't do full 1080p but only 1824x1026 at 24fps. But with the added sharpness that seems to be able to be scaled up just fine.

At nearly half the price of a 5D mark III used, this may be a cheaper and easier thing to consider just to get my feet wet with raw before I go further.
The mark II doesn't have clean HDMI out does it? How is the moire? Is it any worse in raw than in H.264? How is the low light and dynamic range compared to a BMPCC?

But I've never shot raw so what do I need? I know I would need really fast CF cards, but do I need Resolve because I can't run it on my two macs that have integrated GPUs. I do have a Creative Cloud subscription and do my editing in Premiere Pro, though I'm also proficient with After Effects and Lightroom and Photoshop and a little bit with Speedgrade.
 
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You can run the DNG files through After Effects and export a video file for editing in any NLE. After Effects lets you import the stills as a sequence and use Camera Raw to expose one token frame upon import. Works for simple shooting. Lightroom would offer more flexibility but it does not have the option of external preview through a Blackmagic card etc...
 
From what I have seen, the 5D Mark II has show-stopping moire, unless you install a VAF filter or shoot in the 3x crop mode. I'd pay the extra for the Mark III. It i a great deal for what you are getting (especially with the free ML software).

For cards, I have been using a KomputerBay 1066x 256GB card. It gives me around 50 minutes of recording time in 1080P and costs less than $300.
 
QuickHitRecord said:
From what I have seen, the 5D Mark II has show-stopping moire, unless you install a VAF filter or shoot in the 3x crop mode. I'd pay the extra for the Mark III. It i a great deal for what you are getting (especially with the free ML software).

For cards, I have been using a KomputerBay 1066x 256GB card. It gives me around 50 minutes of recording time in 1080P and costs less than $300.
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While the 5D3 looks great I can't help at this point to consider the 5D2. Especially when you consider that a used 5D2 is about the same price as a new BMPCC, yet you're also getting a full frame stills cameras and don't have to worry so much about finding wide angle lenses. From some of the 52D raw videos I've sampled, the moire does look bad in certain scenes but that's already something I have to deal with on my 60D. Seems like the 5D2 raw would still be an upgrade over what I'm currently shooting (H.264 60D footage) and it would be something I could pull the trigger on today versus waiting three months or so to save up for a 5D3. So those are the reasons I'm starting to heavily think about the 5D2.

But there are a few things I'm still trying to find out. Is that 1824x1026 continuous recording or only so many seconds? Is there sound with that? Is there clean HDMI output with magic lantern on the 5D2? (I doubt that last one)
 
I've been shooting h264 video on my mark II since it first came out and never had a client complain about moire. I know how to generally avoid it or not use shots that are distractingly bad. Its not that big of a deal for me.
 
I recently purchased a 5d3 and it is my first dslr that will shoot video. I've been very tempted to load up ML but haven't just yet. Big question, and like the OP, I shoot a lot of stills. How does ML do in stills mode?

TIA
Grant
 
Bassman2003 said:
Also, the 5D RAW footage is limited to 1080p24. If you want 1080p30 or even 720p60 you are going beyond comfortable data rates. It makes great looking footage, but is a bit limiting compared to the URSA mini specs. URSA mini is an unknown at this point anyway. The 5D has the URSA mini beat by lot though.

Shame the JVC is getting mixed impressions. It falls in the middle of a lot of choices.
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Mine shoots 25p so not true.
 
Well sorry for not listing everything but your missing my point. The higher framerates or anything from 30p on in 1080p is a challenge on the 5D shooting RAW. Just trying to help the OP and you are trying to jab me?
 
70D has an alpha ML hack now out too - 14-bit Raw video.

And you get Dual Pixel AF to go with it.
 
DLD said:
70D has an alpha ML hack now out too - 14-bit Raw video.
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I'm confused. Didn't they just recently hack the 70D? I'm surprised to see that it would get an Alpha classification, while the other cameras (the 5D Mark III for instance) have been running their software since summer 2013 and as far as I know, are still in Beta.
 
roxics said:
What kind of resolution are they getting out of the 70D at a constant 24fps?
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I assume 108024p.

QuickHitRecord said:
I'm confused. Didn't they just recently hack the 70D? I'm surprised to see that it would get an Alpha classification, while the other cameras (the 5D Mark III for instance) have been running their software since summer 2013 and as far as I know, are still in Beta.
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Alpha comes before Beta.
 
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