China Censoring Hollywood
- Thread starter ahalpert
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You have to admit, though, that periodically breaking into Eduard Khil's "Trololo" does wonders to lift the spirit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqCd8RPWyJA
Khil was always a "party approved" performer. About a decade ago, when he suddenly became popular again, he told this story about the song above. It's called ~ "Great to be a general" and tells a rather cute story about a private wanting to be one but only if he could survive his corporal. It was a hit in the mid-1960's but then he was called up on the "red carpet" by the Minister of Culture and given a major ass chewing about the song (which he didn't write). It seems that a bunch of generals were upset about the song and complained to the Minister of Culture, a Brezhnev appointee. And so Furtzeva ranted and yelled and told Khil he was suspended from performing in Moscow or appearing (i.e., having his songs played) on the radio. Also sprache Zarathustra. A ban is a ban.
Half a year later, he is at some ball - in Moscow - for the top political and military leaders and gets spotted by none other than Yuri Gagarin, who by then had a saint status in the USSR, They exchange greetings, then Gagarin asks if Khil would perform his favorite hit - "Great to be a general". As a military man, he could relate to the lyrics and he obviously thought the melody was quite nice (he also may have said it had a great beat and was easy to dance to but don't quote me on that). Khil naturally replies, "I am in deep sh!t over this song. Some generals filed a complaint". Gagarin says, "BS. We all love this song. let me go talk to my generals". Comes back few minutes later, "All clear".
Khil performs the song, gets thunderous applause from the high powered suits and gets back on the performing circuit.
BTW, he was making 19r per "concert" (a concert could be as short as 15-20 min, if part of a traveling variety show). Over a month, someone of his stature could make 1,000-1,500r per month, whereas an average income was ~ 100r/mo. Those guys lived well, got their share of perks too. It was very much a who-you-know system.
combatentropy
Veteran
I'm really interested in tracing the changes in business in Hollywood, if anyone can point me to an article or something (or feel free to jot down an outline here, I was just trying to make it easy for you). I was pretty much up to speed until the end of the 1990s. That's when I was in college, I had studied film history, I went to lots of movies, I read magazines on the independent film movement. So I can tell you about the history of Hollywood up to the end of the 20th century.
I can tell you that overseas exhibition was only a slender slice of most movies' box office. They had to make their money back in the U.S. It was true of Gone With the Wind, and it was true of Dances With Wolves. In fact for a long time, a movie had to make its money back in the theater. There was no home video to help finally turn a profit years later.
Somewhere around the turn of the century, I noticed that movies changed. First of all, there was a decrease in cussing, sex, and gore (to my delight. Does anyone remember the sex and violence in R-rated movies of the '80s?) But there was an increase in superhero movies and other plots pulled from comic books, myths, etc. (somewhat to my disappointment, because overall they just seemed bland, they lacked character like, say, Back to the Future or even the 1989 version of Batman). And some time around then overseas distribution grew to half or more of a film's gross. I can see how the two trends are intertwined (globally palatable movies and global profits).
When did that happen exactly, and why? Or rather, why didn't it happen before then? The rest of the world existed before the year 2000.
Whatever it was, I can see why it would be a nice bonus, to have a movie make a lot of money in China or wherever. But movies survived for a century making practically no money in China. So why is it now a "make or break" factor?
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Run&Gun
Veteran
I guess I haven’t really paid much attention to “cussing, sex and gore”, because so much of what I’ve really watched over the last several years are series from the “big three” premium cable channels(HBO, Showtime and Cinemax) and the streamers, which have more of it than pretty much ever was allowed even in an R rated theatrical release. So I never really realized that it was gone.
I’m also guessing that the international markets became so much more important, because of the every increasing budgets to make some of these movies, especially the likes of the super hero/action films. I mean, I’m sure there are a lot of countries in the world that could be supported for a year on the budget of a Marvel movie.
And I agree that a lot of the super hero movies are bland. They’re like chain restaurants. The food may be palatable, but it’s not something that’s going to wow you with incredible taste, because they’re trying to make it appeal to the widest audience. They can’t make it too spicy or too flavorful.
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
I dont know this for a fact, but I think that much of the China reliance is owed to a sort of arms race between movie studios.
Ok - so you decided to forego the Chinese box office for the sake of your artistic freedom. Now, you're making way less money. Then you need to have a smaller budget. Then you may have a harder time competing with other blockbusters domestically. So, there may be a competitive advantage to films that can play to the largest audiences. (Plus, is it possible that Chinese film attendance hasn't declined as much as ours? I haven't checked.)
Then, consider the role that Wall Street is playing in Hollywood. Big, institutional investors push studios to maximize returns - that's what caused them to churn out superhero tentpole movies at the expense of midbudget genre films. How is Wall street going to react to a studio that decides to play only to a domestic audience? If activist investors don't force their hand, the studio would shrink and get bought out by a competitor. My guess.
The stupidest part of this is that the Chinese market is tightly controlled - they have a set number - a very low number - of films from the West they'll allow, and then they re-negotiated that in 2012 and Hollywood thought "that's it, it's a free market", except it never panned out that way - and crucially, just because you sell a lot of tickets doesn't mean you'll make all the money - the usual haul world-wide of the per ticket share is 50%, but in China, it's only 25%! Plus you don't get to freely pick when you can open the movie and guess what, if there's a locally made movie that wants a slot, you'll be bumped. All in all, it's a rum deal - especially now with all the US-China trade trouble, the Chinese are happy to hold Hollywood hostage to the conflict:
https://www.latimes.com/business/hollywood/la-fi-ct-china-box-office-hollywood-20190218-story.html
Key point to remember is that it's not a free market over there. And after all this trouble, Hollywood still slavishly grovels at the feet of these apparatchinks just for the crumbs off the table... all the while dreaming that one day they'll have full access if they just stoop low enough and kiss @$$ long enough and grovel abjectly enough.... a dream many companies in many industries have had, only for it to turn into a nightmare of one-sided exploitation. But the dream never dies. Just remember no matter how low you think Hollywood has sunk, it can always sink lower - during the Nazi era, when anti-Jewish laws were passed, and Hollywood was grovelling in the dirt, somehow they managed to scrape even below the bottom of the barrel:
https://nypost.com/2013/08/01/how-the-nazis-took-control-of-hollywood/
"While studios could figure out the logic behind the Nazi’s hatred of a film like “The Mad Dog of Europe,” the party’s censor eventually became so brazen that studios turned to ever increasing acts of desperation to remain on Germany’s good side.
In one ghastly case, the head of MGM in Germany, Frits Strengholt, actually divorced his Jewish wife and she was sent to a concentration camp."
Now that's low. Imagine you are a movie executive, head representative of a studio in Germany, China, Russia, whatever - and to accommodate the prejudice of the hosts, so they'll keep showing your movies, you will send your beloved wife to a concentration camp to be gassed. So far we haven't heard of this in China, but the precedent is there - so why wouldn't history repeat itself? Let me say it again - there is no depth of depravity that they won't sink to for just a few dollars more. There is your loving wife, looking at you pleadingly, the soldiers grab her to drag her away, she's holding onto the doorframe screaming at you in mortal fear and you just look embarrased away, thinking "but we'll get our movies shown"... and then what happens to her, the horrific unimaginable thing, but your movie is shown. That's historical truth. It's the truth. Face reality. That's what humans are capable of.
https://www.latimes.com/business/hollywood/la-fi-ct-china-box-office-hollywood-20190218-story.html
Key point to remember is that it's not a free market over there. And after all this trouble, Hollywood still slavishly grovels at the feet of these apparatchinks just for the crumbs off the table... all the while dreaming that one day they'll have full access if they just stoop low enough and kiss @$$ long enough and grovel abjectly enough.... a dream many companies in many industries have had, only for it to turn into a nightmare of one-sided exploitation. But the dream never dies. Just remember no matter how low you think Hollywood has sunk, it can always sink lower - during the Nazi era, when anti-Jewish laws were passed, and Hollywood was grovelling in the dirt, somehow they managed to scrape even below the bottom of the barrel:
https://nypost.com/2013/08/01/how-the-nazis-took-control-of-hollywood/
"While studios could figure out the logic behind the Nazi’s hatred of a film like “The Mad Dog of Europe,” the party’s censor eventually became so brazen that studios turned to ever increasing acts of desperation to remain on Germany’s good side.
In one ghastly case, the head of MGM in Germany, Frits Strengholt, actually divorced his Jewish wife and she was sent to a concentration camp."
Now that's low. Imagine you are a movie executive, head representative of a studio in Germany, China, Russia, whatever - and to accommodate the prejudice of the hosts, so they'll keep showing your movies, you will send your beloved wife to a concentration camp to be gassed. So far we haven't heard of this in China, but the precedent is there - so why wouldn't history repeat itself? Let me say it again - there is no depth of depravity that they won't sink to for just a few dollars more. There is your loving wife, looking at you pleadingly, the soldiers grab her to drag her away, she's holding onto the doorframe screaming at you in mortal fear and you just look embarrased away, thinking "but we'll get our movies shown"... and then what happens to her, the horrific unimaginable thing, but your movie is shown. That's historical truth. It's the truth. Face reality. That's what humans are capable of.
A big change in the international markets followed the collapse of the USSR and the economic growth of BRIC and the oil/gas rich Middle East. Russia/CIS was almost hitting one billion in BO in 2018. Western Europe basically stayed a constant.
The overall auxiliary revenue composition also switched from the VHS (1980's-90's) to the DVD (~2000-2015) to streaming (2015-).
The overall auxiliary revenue composition also switched from the VHS (1980's-90's) to the DVD (~2000-2015) to streaming (2015-).
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Pretty simple really. Not the only factor obviously, but the majority is the ascendant middle class in China and the descent of the middle class in the U.S.
The middle class and the kids of the middle class, regardless of the country, have lots of discretionary income to spend on the now expensive outing of going to the movies.
Nothing to do with art or the relative quality of films, it's all societal economics. The market for films has been contracting here for quite a while, overall, with an occasional
positive year. In China, they have been building massive theater complexs like crazy for decades and a much larger portion of the massive population can actually
afford to drop some disposable income to consume movies.
The art and relative quality of films is related to the death of the movie studios. As you know, there are really not very many actual movie studios still in existence, there are branches and divisions of multi global conglomerates mostly. As recently as the early 90s, Movie studios took chances once in a while and once in a while, some good stuff got made. Movies that have stood the test of time and become cultural touchstones.
Global multi-conglomerates live off of focus groups, risk assessment and research. Studio execs can only put the conglomerates money on sequel and comic book product because they are safer bets than cinema. All that fodder isnt always successful but from a percentage viewpoint, "product" has been engineered to financially perform better than art house, edgy, artistic cinema. Sure, there is some art in superhero/comic book franchises, but the movies themselves are not cinematic art, they're product. All of this is separate and distinct with the whole China as a film market.
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Run&Gun
Veteran
As a species, as a whole, we are despicable, vile, evil parasites. For all of the amazing things we have done, we are still nothing more than hate filled, warring, mean animals who have unfortunately been given brains that are capable of figuring out ways to kill and destroy even more efficiently, faster and on larger scales than almost anything else. One only has to look at history and the present to realize how much better off Earth would be without us.
History obviously doesn't look kindly on the Nazi era.
But here's an interesting tidbit. Hermann Göring's brother Albert smuggled Jews out of Germany into Switzerland. When the various border authorities questioned his action, his response generally was, "I'm Albert Göring. Do you know who my brother is?" The authorities did and generally let him proceed. Albert visited Hermann in prison after the war, when the latter was fairly certain of his fate.
PS. Hermann was Hitler's officially named successor until almost the end of the 3rd Reich, when Hitler said, "Adios, I am going to Argentina. Have fun with my fake corpse".
But here's an interesting tidbit. Hermann Göring's brother Albert smuggled Jews out of Germany into Switzerland. When the various border authorities questioned his action, his response generally was, "I'm Albert Göring. Do you know who my brother is?" The authorities did and generally let him proceed. Albert visited Hermann in prison after the war, when the latter was fairly certain of his fate.
PS. Hermann was Hitler's officially named successor until almost the end of the 3rd Reich, when Hitler said, "Adios, I am going to Argentina. Have fun with my fake corpse".
ahalpert
Major Contributor
This article is mostly about the Xinjiang backlash to Mulan: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
"The filmmakers cut a kiss between Mulan and her love interest on the advice of a Chinese test audience."
Heres a long article about the rise of Chinese censorship: https://pen.org/report/made-in-hollywood-censored-by-beijing/
"It is worth acknowledging that the United States government has benefitted from, encouraged, and at times even directed Hollywood filmmaking as an exercise in soft power, including through the promotion of films that offer a “patriotic” message specifically to Americans. The Hollywood-Pentagon relationship, especially—on view in such blockbusters as Contact (South Side Amusement Company, 1997) and Hulk (Universal Pictures, 2003)—continues today, with the U.S. Department of Defense offering conditional access to military facilities and experts to Hollywood films that it believes will reflect well on the country’s armed forces.10 But this governmental influence does not bring to bear a heavy-handed system of institutionalized censorship, as Beijing’s does.
At least more recently, in fact, Hollywood movies have not hesitated to criticize America’s political leaders, to the point where some Americans have argued that filmmakers and film stars are unpatriotic. Major studio movies like Vice (Gary Sanchez Productions, Plan B Entertainment, & Annapurna Pictures, 2018), The Hurt Locker (Voltage Pictures et al., 2008), and The Report (VICE Studios et al., 2019) send up the political powers that be at the highest echelons of American government. Today, Hollywood enjoys a reputation as a place uncowed by Washington, and one that is often gleefully willing to speak truth to American political power. This reputation contrasts strangely but silently with Hollywood’s increasing acceptance of the need to conform to Beijing’s film dictates"
"The filmmakers cut a kiss between Mulan and her love interest on the advice of a Chinese test audience."
Heres a long article about the rise of Chinese censorship: https://pen.org/report/made-in-hollywood-censored-by-beijing/
"It is worth acknowledging that the United States government has benefitted from, encouraged, and at times even directed Hollywood filmmaking as an exercise in soft power, including through the promotion of films that offer a “patriotic” message specifically to Americans. The Hollywood-Pentagon relationship, especially—on view in such blockbusters as Contact (South Side Amusement Company, 1997) and Hulk (Universal Pictures, 2003)—continues today, with the U.S. Department of Defense offering conditional access to military facilities and experts to Hollywood films that it believes will reflect well on the country’s armed forces.10 But this governmental influence does not bring to bear a heavy-handed system of institutionalized censorship, as Beijing’s does.
At least more recently, in fact, Hollywood movies have not hesitated to criticize America’s political leaders, to the point where some Americans have argued that filmmakers and film stars are unpatriotic. Major studio movies like Vice (Gary Sanchez Productions, Plan B Entertainment, & Annapurna Pictures, 2018), The Hurt Locker (Voltage Pictures et al., 2008), and The Report (VICE Studios et al., 2019) send up the political powers that be at the highest echelons of American government. Today, Hollywood enjoys a reputation as a place uncowed by Washington, and one that is often gleefully willing to speak truth to American political power. This reputation contrasts strangely but silently with Hollywood’s increasing acceptance of the need to conform to Beijing’s film dictates"
Here is the typical board room discussion when it comes to China - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu1VKXeq44Y