China Censoring Hollywood
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
Disney bowing to filthy, evil Commies. Walt and Roy must be rolling in their graves. We live in sad times.
The CCP controls everything in China. It's not the Mao era anymore and there's definitely a lot of carrot to their stick but everything within the country is "supervised" by the central committee and/or the regional appointees.
In pure financial terms, the last forty five years in China have been so successful, many even assume it's a free market economy. That is a veneer but, externally, the Chinese companies have a lot more leeway.
In pure financial terms, the last forty five years in China have been so successful, many even assume it's a free market economy. That is a veneer but, externally, the Chinese companies have a lot more leeway.
paulears
Veteran
I find it so difficult to blame entire races for things clearly out of their control. Movies are business. We do business with countries where their regime is in our opinion less good, less advanced, less controlled, less (insert more descriptive words). We trade. I'm afraid I see the current clamour over linking one part of a business with another and then judging it pretty abhorrent. The people at BP, Shell and the other companies must all be horrible people because of the solution they create. Is not treating everyone linked to something we don't like as if they are bad people, or somehow lower in our opinion unfair? Saying Disney should not make a movie in a country because we don't like what they do is racism. Don't deal with ANY Chinese because they have a bad Government, and must clearly be oppressed?
Disney is still a public corporation isn't it? They have shareholders? The company have a duty to do the best deals they can and clearly China was a good deal. I don't care a hoot that they do bad things allegedly - that's an issue for the international community and diplomatic persuasion. I'm an animal lover and their attitude towards some animals is very unpleasant, but that is not my business. Does to prevent me trading with China? Not a bit. I like the Chinese ethic - they go to work early, they stay late, they work hard. The country we will no doubt see in the movie will be beautiful and spectacular. That will do me fine. In the 80s and early 90s I noticed American radio hams were just as happy to talk to Russian hams - yet back home there was a commie hiding in every street?
In the past 5 years I have been to a number of Muslim countries and have totally re-assessed my viewpoint on the people. Sure - if you steal something from a shop they might chop your hands off, or in some, stone you. They might drag you off in the middle of the night in others, yet when Beirut - a pretty terrible place we were told on the news, got blown up, we discover they're just people in need like many others.
Governments are the ones to convince other Governments that change is good, and China has changed greatly in 40 years, and still has a way to go, but for goodness sake - give Disney a break. If the American Government did not step in and say to them - don't do it (which they easily could have) then so what if they filmed in China.
I tell you what - if I got a phone call asking me if I fancied 3 months work in ANY country, I'd take it at the moment.
Have your own private protest about buying Chinese products if you like, but promoting hatred of a race as a generic issue is racism.
Disney is still a public corporation isn't it? They have shareholders? The company have a duty to do the best deals they can and clearly China was a good deal. I don't care a hoot that they do bad things allegedly - that's an issue for the international community and diplomatic persuasion. I'm an animal lover and their attitude towards some animals is very unpleasant, but that is not my business. Does to prevent me trading with China? Not a bit. I like the Chinese ethic - they go to work early, they stay late, they work hard. The country we will no doubt see in the movie will be beautiful and spectacular. That will do me fine. In the 80s and early 90s I noticed American radio hams were just as happy to talk to Russian hams - yet back home there was a commie hiding in every street?
In the past 5 years I have been to a number of Muslim countries and have totally re-assessed my viewpoint on the people. Sure - if you steal something from a shop they might chop your hands off, or in some, stone you. They might drag you off in the middle of the night in others, yet when Beirut - a pretty terrible place we were told on the news, got blown up, we discover they're just people in need like many others.
Governments are the ones to convince other Governments that change is good, and China has changed greatly in 40 years, and still has a way to go, but for goodness sake - give Disney a break. If the American Government did not step in and say to them - don't do it (which they easily could have) then so what if they filmed in China.
I tell you what - if I got a phone call asking me if I fancied 3 months work in ANY country, I'd take it at the moment.
Have your own private protest about buying Chinese products if you like, but promoting hatred of a race as a generic issue is racism.
It's not a matter of race, Paul.
I have zero problem with Taiwanese. I have zero problems with the many Chinese researchers and doctors I work with, South Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc etc. Hell, I have no problems with the conscientious Chinese citizens that are simply living their lives trying not to harm others. I do, however, have a major problem with the Chinese Communist Party, which is far and away the most murderous regime that has ever existed on the planet (at least in so far as we have any recorded data).
They're currently running concentration camps and harvesting organs from live people, for God's sake. We have video of them herding Uighurs into boxcars, intercepted shipments of 13 TONS of human hair... Amazon, Google, Disney, Nike, NBA et al will happily look the other way because they only see 1.5ishB people with little dollar/yuan signs above their heads, and draw huge profits from leveraging cheap forced labor. didn't we already go through this avarice-induced denial once last century?
I have zero problem with Taiwanese. I have zero problems with the many Chinese researchers and doctors I work with, South Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc etc. Hell, I have no problems with the conscientious Chinese citizens that are simply living their lives trying not to harm others. I do, however, have a major problem with the Chinese Communist Party, which is far and away the most murderous regime that has ever existed on the planet (at least in so far as we have any recorded data).
They're currently running concentration camps and harvesting organs from live people, for God's sake. We have video of them herding Uighurs into boxcars, intercepted shipments of 13 TONS of human hair... Amazon, Google, Disney, Nike, NBA et al will happily look the other way because they only see 1.5ishB people with little dollar/yuan signs above their heads, and draw huge profits from leveraging cheap forced labor. didn't we already go through this avarice-induced denial once last century?
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Not sure where you got hatred of a race? Are Communists a race? I am friends with many Chinese people, I've worked closely with two Chinese National dance troops
for years so I get unfiltered, from the horse's mouth, from it's citizens of what the government does, how it treats its people, the human rights abuses, psychological warfare
and insidious overreach that the CCP has into the every day lives of it's people. The Chinese government is truly inhuman and evil. The Chinese people, I love and feel
total sympathy for, I have friends there. Most people in the West have no idea of the daily cruelty and inhumanity that the people of China exist under, they just see China's
explosive growth and semi capitalistic tendencies and assume that life's all prosperous and good over there.
As far as Disney, I never worked with Walt but I did work with and on several occasions had lunch with Roy and spoke with him extensively about how Walt and him
tried to run the company, the ideals they had and their values. Unfortunately this was during the era when Eiger assumed the helm and Roy was non too happy about how
things were being ran. Bowing to and compromising their artistic vision to CCP censors would have been abhorrent to both of them.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I think you're making a leap of logic, Paul. Nobody is talking about Chinese people, only the government of China.
There are a lot of evil-doing governments in the world. Personally, I'd like to be as far away from what's happening with starving Yemeni children as possible. Or, better yet, feed them.
The problem is that China is growing more powerful than us.
Saudi Arabia has a lot of sway because they're like the Beverly Hillbillies of the world. But it's nothing compared to the influence and control China has or will have. And they're going to become so much more powerful.
Yielding to their demands is not the same as yielding to the demands of an American corporation or the US government. I mean, the dynamics are the same, but the principles and values of the Chinese government are far from libertarian. So, essentially, you participate in and extend it.
Am I mad at Disney? Principally I'm just scared
There are a lot of evil-doing governments in the world. Personally, I'd like to be as far away from what's happening with starving Yemeni children as possible. Or, better yet, feed them.
The problem is that China is growing more powerful than us.
Saudi Arabia has a lot of sway because they're like the Beverly Hillbillies of the world. But it's nothing compared to the influence and control China has or will have. And they're going to become so much more powerful.
Yielding to their demands is not the same as yielding to the demands of an American corporation or the US government. I mean, the dynamics are the same, but the principles and values of the Chinese government are far from libertarian. So, essentially, you participate in and extend it.
Am I mad at Disney? Principally I'm just scared
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
That is a bit obtuse.
Hating the Chinese Communist Party, which has killed more people than any other government in history, suppresses free speech and religion, operates organ harvesting prisons for political prisoners, and internment camps for Uyghurs, isn't racist by any means.
Sure, in principle, we all agree (well, minus Paul, who is usually on point but completely missed on this one). The west has catered to the China for the almighty buck for a long time. There's hardly a company that hasn't sold themselves to China; giving them technology, giving them profits (China insists on a 51% ownership of any business in China). I've never understood it. Companies (and countries) have made China what it is today by giving them every technology and a good portion of their business and profits. So Disney catered to China's request. Who hasn't. There is nothing new there. If this Disney thing is an issue, we all should have been disgusted long ago. Well, I have been, but did I do anything about it? No. I buy from China often. I am building their economy. So I'm no better than Disney or nearly anyone else in the western world who buys directly or indirectly from China.
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Folks, this is straying dangerously close into politics - talking about the government of China doing this that and the third and the Communist Party. We should stop this direction of talk, and stick to business and censorship as it affects our work AND NOTHING MORE. To prove my point, I'll make one sharp strong statement - necessarily oblique so that I stay within the TOS, but hopefully sharp enough to stop this politics talk:
All this talk about China this and that and all the deaths they're responsible for - you live in a glass house. Throwing stones from these shores is mostly an exercise in semantics - talk to folks in various regions and see how they can stack up bodies and numbers for which we are responsible, and it's in the multi, multi millions, wars on trumped up evidence, overthrows and so on going on for decades and decades longer than Communist China has even existed. And ongoing at this very moment. Empires are like that, and aspiring empires (China) too. So stop throwing stones. Get the beam out of your own eye. Because it's not just external, we have internal stuff too. You talk about China going after this minority or that and camps and this. Well, many see the exact same thing here in the U.S., I won't mention politics, just look what's going on in the streets as a result of DECADES of vicious treatment. Our prison industrial complex is the largest in the world - yes, bigger than China. And what is the reason for the existence of that complex - if you say crime, you've just swallowed propaganda just as much as the average Chinese. READ HISTORY and how laws were passed specifically to target minorities so they can get free labor - a kind of substitute for what was lost in the Civil War - just under and different name... please examine our consitution, we have a specific carve out, written intentionally to continue the same under an different name - a shocking fact that's unknown to most Americans and a scandal absent in other constitutions the world over - read the 13th amendment. Utterly disgusting and going on to this day. You are in NO POSITION. NONE. To point fingers.
And that's all I'm gonna say about that, as to say more is to go full blown politics. So how about we stop with the politics in China?
Your hands are not clean. Oh, you say, you can't control that, it's our government. How is that different from the Chinese and their government. If anything you have more control than they, since you live in a democracy, yet you're OK with all that's going on in your name. Hypocrite.
Boycott whoever you want. Do business or not. But SHUT UP about your holier than thou attitude. There are practical problems. I am disgusted by Hollywood bowing down in censorship to evil, but they've been doing that since day one... including here in the U.S., not just the Nazis as I provided a link in the other post.
We are all individuals. Vote with your wallet. Make content that's free from the lure of $ from evil sources. Do that and don't stand on a soapbox, because if you are going to criticize others, clean up your own house first. Actions speak louder than words.
All this talk about China this and that and all the deaths they're responsible for - you live in a glass house. Throwing stones from these shores is mostly an exercise in semantics - talk to folks in various regions and see how they can stack up bodies and numbers for which we are responsible, and it's in the multi, multi millions, wars on trumped up evidence, overthrows and so on going on for decades and decades longer than Communist China has even existed. And ongoing at this very moment. Empires are like that, and aspiring empires (China) too. So stop throwing stones. Get the beam out of your own eye. Because it's not just external, we have internal stuff too. You talk about China going after this minority or that and camps and this. Well, many see the exact same thing here in the U.S., I won't mention politics, just look what's going on in the streets as a result of DECADES of vicious treatment. Our prison industrial complex is the largest in the world - yes, bigger than China. And what is the reason for the existence of that complex - if you say crime, you've just swallowed propaganda just as much as the average Chinese. READ HISTORY and how laws were passed specifically to target minorities so they can get free labor - a kind of substitute for what was lost in the Civil War - just under and different name... please examine our consitution, we have a specific carve out, written intentionally to continue the same under an different name - a shocking fact that's unknown to most Americans and a scandal absent in other constitutions the world over - read the 13th amendment. Utterly disgusting and going on to this day. You are in NO POSITION. NONE. To point fingers.
And that's all I'm gonna say about that, as to say more is to go full blown politics. So how about we stop with the politics in China?
Your hands are not clean. Oh, you say, you can't control that, it's our government. How is that different from the Chinese and their government. If anything you have more control than they, since you live in a democracy, yet you're OK with all that's going on in your name. Hypocrite.
Boycott whoever you want. Do business or not. But SHUT UP about your holier than thou attitude. There are practical problems. I am disgusted by Hollywood bowing down in censorship to evil, but they've been doing that since day one... including here in the U.S., not just the Nazis as I provided a link in the other post.
We are all individuals. Vote with your wallet. Make content that's free from the lure of $ from evil sources. Do that and don't stand on a soapbox, because if you are going to criticize others, clean up your own house first. Actions speak louder than words.
The opposite - not relative moral standards, but absolute moral standards, the same for everyone - apply the same measure to yourself as you do to others. And when you find you are just as guilty, give the same energy to that as to attacking others. Not just today, but everyday.
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“From the era of slavery to the present day, the first full history of black America’s shocking mistreatment as unwilling and unwitting experimental subjects at the hands of the medical establishment.”
Avaiable on Amazon. Quite educational in a “mote and beam” way.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
OldCorpse is broadly correct.
However - the larger issue is that I do not want to live in a world where the limits of my freedom of speech are dictated by the Chinese government. Or by my American corporate employer who bends to the will of the Chinese government to obtain market access.
I also don't want my freedom limited by American government or corporations censoring me for their own reasons.
But China is more strict than US entities and also has more totalitarian instincts.
There are limits to what American movies will say about American government. But, for example, Spielberg just came out with a movie about the Pentagon Papers. There was a movie about the torture memos on Amazon Prime recently.
Contrast that with how China banned the mention of Leica from social media after they put out an ad depicting Tank Man from Tiananmen Square. Tiananmen Square has been wiped from the history books and internet in China. Just like in 1984.
Then, look at how they are forcibly acquiring territory - Tibet, Hong Kong, Taiwan.
And the Uighur Muslims are being interned, "reeducated," and (I believe) having their children taken away and given to Han families. (That last part is similar to the movie "Rabbit-Proof Fence" - "The film illustrates the official child removal policy that existed in Australia between approximately 1905 and 1967.") So basically, China is still doing things that most "Western" countries gave up 50-100 years ago. But they're ramping up, not slowing down.
Take all that in and then extrapolate to the future, knowing that China will have even more power, influence, and capabilities than today, but fewer restraints.
Europe and many of our allies are waking up to the fact that - however they feel about US foreign policy - a China-led world will not be the same and will simply have diminished civil liberties.
Don't look at our relative impact when we were strong and they were weak. Consider their behavior today and the trend lines.
Yes, I would like all countries to respect human rights and the rule of law. But I won't embrace Chinese policy just because there are other bad actors in the world.
However - the larger issue is that I do not want to live in a world where the limits of my freedom of speech are dictated by the Chinese government. Or by my American corporate employer who bends to the will of the Chinese government to obtain market access.
I also don't want my freedom limited by American government or corporations censoring me for their own reasons.
But China is more strict than US entities and also has more totalitarian instincts.
There are limits to what American movies will say about American government. But, for example, Spielberg just came out with a movie about the Pentagon Papers. There was a movie about the torture memos on Amazon Prime recently.
Contrast that with how China banned the mention of Leica from social media after they put out an ad depicting Tank Man from Tiananmen Square. Tiananmen Square has been wiped from the history books and internet in China. Just like in 1984.
Then, look at how they are forcibly acquiring territory - Tibet, Hong Kong, Taiwan.
And the Uighur Muslims are being interned, "reeducated," and (I believe) having their children taken away and given to Han families. (That last part is similar to the movie "Rabbit-Proof Fence" - "The film illustrates the official child removal policy that existed in Australia between approximately 1905 and 1967.") So basically, China is still doing things that most "Western" countries gave up 50-100 years ago. But they're ramping up, not slowing down.
Take all that in and then extrapolate to the future, knowing that China will have even more power, influence, and capabilities than today, but fewer restraints.
Europe and many of our allies are waking up to the fact that - however they feel about US foreign policy - a China-led world will not be the same and will simply have diminished civil liberties.
Don't look at our relative impact when we were strong and they were weak. Consider their behavior today and the trend lines.
Yes, I would like all countries to respect human rights and the rule of law. But I won't embrace Chinese policy just because there are other bad actors in the world.
China is sort of repeating the old Soviet practices from the 1960's and 70's.
To set it up - when the Beatles became hugely popular in the West, the Soviet kids wanted to emulate everything about them, from the looks to the music. At first, all rock-n-roll music was banned and only brass based orchestra (kind of like the Lush Sounds of the 1950's) was allowed. But the top brass - I am talking about the CPSU here - could not stop the Beatles onslaught because one could still get the signal from the Deutsche Welle, BBC and Radio Stockholm. And then the Soviet leaders decided to take on a well worn staple of "if you can't beat'em, join'em". In the late 1960's, the powers-at-be permitted the creation of the Ensemble with the Vocals and the Instrumentals (VIA). They could not be called "bands" or "groups" as that was deemed too decadent. The could not use the distortion effect pedals (fuzz, wah-wah, overdrive, etc.). They could not have long hair, sideburns or beards. They had to wear the suits tailored for them. No blue jeans, no untucked shirts. Females had to wear floor length dresses with no low cut tops. Songs had to be written by the approved composers/songwriters/lyricists. Overall, they looked like a bunch of Pat Boone clones, nailed to the floor in one spot, void of movement and emotion. But, on the surface, they looked close enough to the popular Western groups of the preceding era. And that was good enough for many.
And that's what China is doing. It looks like an open society, except that it's not.
And I just argued that point on an econ/pol FB page.
PS. I won't embed this but here's a typical Soviet state-approved group from 1974 at the annual Song of the Year show. The music itself is quite good but the entire VIA era from the late 60's to the early 80's produced maybe 300 decent numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEPTsucsGTk
To set it up - when the Beatles became hugely popular in the West, the Soviet kids wanted to emulate everything about them, from the looks to the music. At first, all rock-n-roll music was banned and only brass based orchestra (kind of like the Lush Sounds of the 1950's) was allowed. But the top brass - I am talking about the CPSU here - could not stop the Beatles onslaught because one could still get the signal from the Deutsche Welle, BBC and Radio Stockholm. And then the Soviet leaders decided to take on a well worn staple of "if you can't beat'em, join'em". In the late 1960's, the powers-at-be permitted the creation of the Ensemble with the Vocals and the Instrumentals (VIA). They could not be called "bands" or "groups" as that was deemed too decadent. The could not use the distortion effect pedals (fuzz, wah-wah, overdrive, etc.). They could not have long hair, sideburns or beards. They had to wear the suits tailored for them. No blue jeans, no untucked shirts. Females had to wear floor length dresses with no low cut tops. Songs had to be written by the approved composers/songwriters/lyricists. Overall, they looked like a bunch of Pat Boone clones, nailed to the floor in one spot, void of movement and emotion. But, on the surface, they looked close enough to the popular Western groups of the preceding era. And that was good enough for many.
And that's what China is doing. It looks like an open society, except that it's not.
And I just argued that point on an econ/pol FB page.
PS. I won't embed this but here's a typical Soviet state-approved group from 1974 at the annual Song of the Year show. The music itself is quite good but the entire VIA era from the late 60's to the early 80's produced maybe 300 decent numbers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEPTsucsGTk
