cheapest Canon APS-C without 4Gb limit?

[den59]

Hi everyone,

I was thinking of giving 550D + ML + 24-105/4 a try, but I am a bit worried about 12min (4Gb) limit.
Are there any higher but still relatively cheap (cheaper than 5dm3) models which don't have this? I wonder if the new 70D has this limit or not.
So, what's the cheapest canon APS-C which does not have the 4Gb limit, if there is any?

p.s. I'm aware of ML re-start recording option

Regards,
Denis.

 

[lyrov]

I think T4i (650D), T5i (700D) and the new 70D dont have that limit...they create a new continuous file when they reach the 4GB limit so you can have continous recording for up to 30 minutes...

 

[den59]

I think T4i (650D), T5i (700D) and the new 70D dont have that limit...they create a new continuous file when they reach the 4GB limit so you can have continous recording for up to 30 minutes...

I checked the manual of 650D - "If the file size exceeds 4Gb, a new file will be automatically created" (p176). A bit more is written on p.182.: "...a new file will be created automatically".

Any 650D users can comment on it? Does one loose some frames (or even seconds)? Or is it completely smooth?

 

[drapeama]

When using Magic Lantern, you can lower the bitrate of the videos, therefor, record longer before it split at 4GB : lower bitrate takes less space = slower to get to 4GB = longer in time.

But as other said, once one video will stops, the other will start right after. I don't think there's a "major" issue with dropped frames here. Never noticed any in my experience though.

 

[M. Gilden]

I wouldn't hold my breath that any Canon DSLR will have recording limits removed anytime soon. While they don't make a big deal about it here in the US, there are some locations that tax video cameras differently than still cameras. If records small clips, it can still be considered just a photography device, however 30 minutes or more of video and it becomes considered a camcorder. This is why some manufacturers impose a 29 minute limit- just shy of the 30 needed to bump it into the next tax bracket.

While this isn't confirmed, I always theorized that this is why Canon didn't bother spanning files in the first generation of HDSLRs at all. They had camcorders and other video devices that would record until the media is full, yet the 5D and 7D would hit 4GB and stop recording. It would seem like they figured, why bother implementing a complex file spanning system if you are trying to keep it from being classified as a camcorder anyway? Turns out the people wanted longer file recording, so they decided to do exactly that. Span files until you hit 29 minutes, that way soccer moms can record the game or piano recital, but it is still not technically considered a camcorder.

But here's the big question: How much recording time per shot do you need?

Are you planning on shooting movies? Out in Hollywood, you have to remember that the standard length of a 35 mm motion picture reel is 1,000 feet resulting in... wait for it... approximately 11 minutes of recording. Notice how short each cut during a movie is, and then realize that shooting with only 11 minutes of film at a time was more than necessary to tell their story. You're better off, as the first gen DSLRs actually got 12 or more before reaching the 4GB limit!

But then what about live events and documentaries that require longer lengths of recording uncut? You need to ask yourself then if 29 minutes is even long enough! I just recorded a lecture last night as a side gig, ran for an hour and a half. Luckily, I have cameras that don't impose any recording limit at all (Panasonic GH2) so I didn't have to change anything. It seems like the new 29 minute recording limit is neither here nor there; more than enough for short films (as was the original 12 minute limit) but too short to replace a camcorder.

Yes, as has been mentioned, magic lantern can restart recording automatically once it stops, however in my experience it DOES create a gap in the footage. Sometimes as much as 3 seconds or more. If you are recording someone's wedding and that happens in the middle of father in law's speech, expect them to ask for a refund.
What I used to do is set up two canon DSLRs, start them about a minute apart from each other, having magic lantern auto-restart and this way whenever camera 1 cuts out, I can cut to camera 2 for that part, and never see that gap. But those days are long behind me.

I'd say, ask yourself if recording limits are really a concern for you. If you intend to do live events, none of the Canon models are really going to work for you as they are all limited to some capacity (I'd recommend looking at alternatives, such as Sony and Panasonic). If you are shooting narrative short films, the first gen's 12 min limit is more than you need.

 

[drapeama]

But here's the big question: How much recording time per shot do you need?

You raise an excellent point here.

 

[Ted Ramasola]

The ML video restart option in H264 video do leave gaps of 1-3 frames whereas in Raw video there is no gaps.

But I begin to think, can these DSLRs handle very long record times?

I was stress testing several CF cards including 128 and 256 gig cf cards and I have to say, even if ML has hacked the cameras to record raw with no time limit,
the camera I used already started to smell funny past 70 gigabytes. In raw video 64 gig is about 15 minutes.

So this goes back to M. Gilden's point.

 

[den59]

When using Magic Lantern, you can lower the bitrate of the videos, therefor, record longer before it split at 4GB : lower bitrate takes less space = slower to get to 4GB = longer in time.

But as other said, once one video will stops, the other will start right after. I don't think there's a "major" issue with dropped frames here. Never noticed any in my experience though.

Thanks, i am aware of this option. I think on ML site/forums they say that there will be some gaps if doing so.

I wouldn't hold my breath that any Canon DSLR will have recording limits removed anytime soon. While they don't make a big deal about it here in the US, there are some locations that tax video cameras differently than still cameras. If records small clips, it can still be considered just a photography device, however 30 minutes or more of video and it becomes considered a camcorder. This is why some manufacturers impose a 29 minute limit- just shy of the 30 needed to bump it into the next tax bracket.

While this isn't confirmed, I always theorized that this is why Canon didn't bother spanning files in the first generation of HDSLRs at all. They had camcorders and other video devices that would record until the media is full, yet the 5D and 7D would hit 4GB and stop recording. It would seem like they figured, why bother implementing a complex file spanning system if you are trying to keep it from being classified as a camcorder anyway? Turns out the people wanted longer file recording, so they decided to do exactly that. Span files until you hit 29 minutes, that way soccer moms can record the game or piano recital, but it is still not technically considered a camcorder.

But here's the big question: How much recording time per shot do you need?

Are you planning on shooting movies? Out in Hollywood, you have to remember that the standard length of a 35 mm motion picture reel is 1,000 feet resulting in... wait for it... approximately 11 minutes of recording. Notice how short each cut during a movie is, and then realize that shooting with only 11 minutes of film at a time was more than necessary to tell their story. You're better off, as the first gen DSLRs actually got 12 or more before reaching the 4GB limit!

But then what about live events and documentaries that require longer lengths of recording uncut? You need to ask yourself then if 29 minutes is even long enough! I just recorded a lecture last night as a side gig, ran for an hour and a half. Luckily, I have cameras that don't impose any recording limit at all (Panasonic GH2) so I didn't have to change anything. It seems like the new 29 minute recording limit is neither here nor there; more than enough for short films (as was the original 12 minute limit) but too short to replace a camcorder.

Yes, as has been mentioned, magic lantern can restart recording automatically once it stops, however in my experience it DOES create a gap in the footage. Sometimes as much as 3 seconds or more. If you are recording someone's wedding and that happens in the middle of father in law's speech, expect them to ask for a refund.
What I used to do is set up two canon DSLRs, start them about a minute apart from each other, having magic lantern auto-restart and this way whenever camera 1 cuts out, I can cut to camera 2 for that part, and never see that gap. But those days are long behind me.

I'd say, ask yourself if recording limits are really a concern for you. If you intend to do live events, none of the Canon models are really going to work for you as they are all limited to some capacity (I'd recommend looking at alternatives, such as Sony and Panasonic). If you are shooting narrative short films, the first gen's 12 min limit is more than you need.

Thanks for a detailed answer. I am perfectly fine with 30min limit, I already use GH3 with that limit since i'm in Europe and here they tax you more, as you said.
My intention is more of a documentary stuff (no fiction), but no live-events, so as long as it is about 30 min i'm fine.

Do you have any experience with 650/700d in terms of gaps during restart option?
They don't say anything in user manual about gaps.

With regards to alternatives, i think on sony side there is nothing cheap (1000 and less) that will not overheat randomly during first 5-10 min, as far as i am aware
I suppose Canon's overheat as well, so the max. recording is limited by this factor, but from forum posts I have a feeling that this is not as a big deal as for NEX.

The ML video restart option in H264 video do leave gaps of 1-3 frames whereas in Raw video there is no gaps.

But I begin to think, can these DSLRs handle very long record times?

I was stress testing several CF cards including 128 and 256 gig cf cards and I have to say, even if ML has hacked the cameras to record raw with no time limit,
the camera I used already started to smell funny past 70 gigabytes. In raw video 64 gig is about 15 minutes.

So this goes back to M. Gilden's point.

Raw is definitely an overkill to me, but it's good to have it as an option

 

[M. Gilden]

Thanks for a detailed answer. I am perfectly fine with 30min limit, I already use GH3 with that limit since i'm in Europe and here they tax you more, as you said.

Ah, so you already have a GH3. I was thinking of recommending a GH2, since even the PAL version can easily have the recording limit removed, while still sporting higher definition images and less moire than any Canon option to date. But if you've already got a GH3, I suppose you are already aware of that alternative... in which case, may I ask why the interest in switching to Canon?

Do you have any experience with 650/700d in terms of gaps during restart option?
They don't say anything in user manual about gaps.

Which user manual are you referring to? The Magic Lantern manual?
I've never personally tried it on the newer rebels, but all the Canons I have tried exhibit the same behavior- it won't start the next file until the previous one has finished writing out the buffer and closed. That might go faster with DIGIC5 cameras versus the older ones, but also probably has a lot more to do with the SD system write speeds, which haven't improved much. I'm sure there will still be some sort of gap.

With regards to alternatives, i think on sony side there is nothing cheap (1000 and less) that will not overheat randomly during first 5-10 min, as far as i am aware
I suppose Canon's overheat as well, so the max. recording is limited by this factor, but from forum posts I have a feeling that this is not as a big deal as for NEX.

True, NEXs run hot- I've seen some pretty interesting rigs to cool them while they shoot though. I don't have that much experience with them first hand, but I've heard of folks gluing a cpu heatsink to the body and running an off-camera LCD to run longer times without a problem. But yet- its another something to deal with.

I was honestly picturing the GH series as alternatives. The GH1 is dirt cheap, the GH2 isn't far behind. And the GH2's crop factor isn't that far off from APSC in video mode.

 

[Michael Carter]

If you need 15 min.-plus for takes, it may be time to look past DSLRs and their inherent problems (heat, audio, etc). For interviews and events, I use something like an HMC-150, AC-130, AF 100. Even if it's just me shooting, I'll stick that on a tripod, angle a monitor where I can see it, and use a DSLR to get tighter closeups, hand motions, etc. Handy to have cutaways if you edit a lot of dialogue (especially getting rid of "umms" and stutters).

With the IQ I can get from a modern "real" video camera, I tend to think of my DSLRs as "pretty/artsy" cameras. Not knowing what you're up to, it's hard to advise.

 

[den59]

Ah, so you already have a GH3.... But if you've already got a GH3, I suppose you are already aware of that alternative... in which case, may I ask why the interest in switching to Canon?

Well, i don't really want to switch, i jus don't feel like investing about 1000 Euro into m43 zoom (Pana 12-35/2.8 or Olimpus 12-40/2.8) which is still a bit short to my taste, 24-105/4 (which costs about 800 here) sounds better to me. The new power zoom (600 euro) from Sony is also very nice, but since all cheap NEXs overheat, one can probably benefit from this zoom on FS100/700 only, which are too expensive.

Don't get me wrong, i do like m43 and new cameras (GX7) and lenses which appear (e.g Voigtlander 42.5/0.95, new Pana Leica 42/..., etc). 2.8 on m43 is roughly similar to 4.0 on APC in terms of DOF, and m43 is bigger than s16, and there are many, many docus (from Moore, Maysels, Broomfield, Kopple, to name just a few) i really like which are shot on small sensors. So i'm fine with m43, even though i used to shoot in FF (d700) and often use medium format (Mamiya 67) for photo.

However i'm getting a bit skeptical watching competitors developing (Canon, Sony) and Panasonic being frozen with AF100. It looks like they don't really want to develop video side of the m43 system. Thus investing into it for the sake of video is something i'm not sure about.

Now, if i'm to use 24-105 on gh3, i would need Metabones speed-boster to get aperture working. For that money (around 500+tax in Europe) i can get one of the Canon's rebels, which could easily be a second camera. Thus my will to give it a try. And the whole package is quite comparable price-wise to the Pana 12-35/2.8.

Which user manual are you referring to? The Magic Lantern manual?

I refere to Canon's manual for 650D.

I've never personally tried it on the newer rebels, but all the Canons I have tried exhibit the same behavior- it won't start the next file until the previous one has finished writing out the buffer and closed. That might go faster with DIGIC5 cameras versus the older ones, but also probably has a lot more to do with the SD system write speeds, which haven't improved much. I'm sure there will still be some sort of gap.

Interesting, i wonder how Panasonic manages to do it without gaps? Frankly, with gh3 i never hit the record limit in terms of file size, i think.

If you need 15 min.-plus for takes, it may be time to look past DSLRs and their inherent problems (heat, audio, etc). For interviews and events, I use something like an HMC-150, AC-130, AF 100. Even if it's just me shooting, I'll stick that on a tripod, angle a monitor where I can see it, and use a DSLR to get tighter closeups, hand motions, etc. Handy to have cutaways if you edit a lot of dialogue (especially getting rid of "umms" and stutters).

With the IQ I can get from a modern "real" video camera, I tend to think of my DSLRs as "pretty/artsy" cameras. Not knowing what you're up to, it's hard to advise.

AF 100 is definitely a nice camera, and i would love to have one, but my interest in filmmaking is not my main job, i can't yet afford myself investing in a proper video camera. I would rather stick with GH3 and deal with its limitation and use it's advantages over many camcorders.

 

[garya]

I have the Canon M and I bought it for $300 with the kit lens 22m f/2. The lens alone costs $200, so the camera basically cost me $100 and it has the APS-C sensor. I have ML on it and I record up to 29:59 minutes with it before it stops. I think it did that even before I used ML on it.

 

[markr041]

I have the Canon M and I bought it for $300 with the kit lens 22m f/2. The lens alone costs $200, so the camera basically cost me $100 and it has the APS-C sensor. I have ML on it and I record up to 29:59 minutes with it before it stops. I think it did that even before I used ML on it.

Yes, and with the 18-55mm STM IS zoom lens (much better for video) the kit is only $349. For sure, this continues beyond the 4GB.