cowpunk52
Veteran
It's true. Seeing the animators work at the Treyarch studios - it's some really tedious work, in a dark room at a desk all day for a long time. But man do they rake it in....
Canon's 4K Cinema EOS Official Announcement & Latest Info-NAB 2012
- Thread starter PappasArts
- Start date
It's true. Seeing the animators work at the Treyarch studios - it's some really tedious work, in a dark room at a desk all day for a long time. But man do they rake it in....
Michael Olsen
Veteran
Assuming my numbers are correct, the C300 has a 3840x2160 sensor. That's not 4K. It's Quad Full High Definition (QFHD).
RED's always been pretty open with their "special math".
With Mysterium, they used to record from a sensor section that was 4096 photosites wide, producing an image that was 4096 pixels wide, being debayered in the process, resulting in approximately 3.5K actual resolved luma resolution. They call this 4K.
With Mysterium-X on RED ONE, they used to record from a sensor section up to 4480 photosites wide, producing an image that was 4480 pixels wide, being debayered in the process, resulting in approximately 3.8K actual resolved luma resolution. They call this 4.5K.
With Mysterium-X on EPIC they record from a sensor section 5120 photosites wide, producing and image that is 5120 pixels wide, being debayered in the process, resulting in approximately 4.3K actual resolved luma resolution. They call this 5K.
4096 is 4K. In any instance above, RED is using at least a 4096 wide sensor to produce an image of equal size that actually resolves approximately 85% of that resolution. If RED has ever lied or been especially tricky about being 4K, pretty much every "1080p HD" camera on the market is lying about being 1080pHD, and every DSLR is lying about their photographic output resolution.
That's very simple math, and very straight forward math. The only time it gets confusing is if people start comparing Bayer CMOS to 3CCD and using the measurements from one to measure the other, or trying to make a point of it that Bayer CMOS is inefficient and "4K isn't really 4K" when everyone knows that. Measure the RED like any other similarly patterned CMOS and all the RED math makes complete sense.
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Case in point here, if my numbers are correct and the sensor in this Canon is 3840 wide, they are starting well below where RED was when RED was claiming "4K" (or where Dalsa was, for that matter, with the Origin). And they are starting well below the 4096 measurement for "Full" 4K.
Some simple math - the only way to get a 4096 image from a 3840 sensor is to upscale.
More simple math - even starting with a 3840 sensor (not upscaling) and using the same general "bayer-like sensor" math (85% of the photosite resolution), the actual resolved luma resolution would peak at about 3.3K.
4K? I'd say not. But I bet the images are beautiful anyway.
cowpunk52
Veteran
Update on C500: suggested list price of $30K
http://blog.filmtools.com/2012/04/1...new-cinema-eos-c500-c500-pl-eos-1d-c-cameras/
http://blog.filmtools.com/2012/04/1...new-cinema-eos-c500-c500-pl-eos-1d-c-cameras/
I imagine the "indie" game devs are kind of like indie filmmakers, trying to figure out which game they can make for as little money as possible and few crew members.
Outlets like PSN, XBL... blerg. Going to apply to Activision now.
simonpwood
Well-known member
Red is part of the reason that Canon & Sony are developing S35 cameras at this price point (probably). You get the feeling that a lot of the footage produced over the last +4 years by Red was never delivered in 4K, apart from a number of Cinema releases, everything else was 1080p. Its only now that the other big producers are jumping on the bandwagon that 4K is suddenly going to be more relevant. I'm more excited about a 4K TV than I ever was about the idea of a 3D TV.
Its interesting to go through some of the posts on RedUser just before the launch of the C300 & Scarlet. A lot of Red users were laughing about what they thought Canon would release; a lot of them were joking it would be the 'hairdryer' prototype. The last laugh was on them though; the Scarlet is as hot and as loud as a hairdryer - man that thing is loud! Yeah, now that Canon, Sony and Panny are getting in the game Red will have to start dealing with day-to-day realities like media, batteries, and that damn fan noise.
I hope Red keeps on top of it all though, with all the rabid fanboys (a very vocal minority of Red users really) its sometimes easy to forget about the positive impact Red has had on all this.
Canon has showed us where its heading with its Cinema division, next up should be when they show us where they're heading with their long established prosumer division. I'm hoping the next generation of T4 or T5s will benefit from the trickle down effect.
cowpunk52
Veteran
The sensor in the C300, and thus the same as the sensor in the C500 has 4216 x 2340 photosites. In the C300, only 3840 x 2160 photosites are active, the rest are used to do a continuous black balance. The C500 originates 4K from it's sensor presumably by using 4096 x 2160 of the sensor's photosites, which equals to 4K output resolution of the camera and is under the full pixel count of the sensor.
sources:
http://learn.usa.canon.com/app/pdfs/white_papers/EOS_C300_New_35mm_CMOS_Sensor_WP.pdf
http://blog.filmtools.com/2012/04/1...new-cinema-eos-c500-c500-pl-eos-1d-c-cameras/
Kevin Marshall
Active member
Question is, how much does a 4K external recorder cost?
I think people still need to remember that this DSLR is exactly that. It's Canon's top end SLR (same as 1DX) with, for stills photographers that need the quality for broadcast, video to match. This camera will meet BBC & other broadcast criteria allowing stills guys to use ONE camera. Sure it will be used by production companies as a small concealable camera but full up productions or indie film makers is not where it's aimed. Why would you pay 15K for a video camera that does not have the functionality of the C300?
Rather than being a stills camera that shoots a bit of video this is top end stills & video in one package. For the pros that need both functions it will fly off the shelves. (By the time it hits the stores it will be 11.5K)
Rather than being a stills camera that shoots a bit of video this is top end stills & video in one package. For the pros that need both functions it will fly off the shelves. (By the time it hits the stores it will be 11.5K)
If this were true then Canon would have made RED 1, Scarlet and Epic: three cameras that have, for the past couple of years, been used in the most high profile cinema productions known to cinema. Is Ridley Scott using Canons to shoot Promethius, or Peter Jackson to shoot The Hobbit?
What do you know that Ridley and Sir Peter don't know?
From Che to Social Network and more, Canon innovation has been conspicuously absent.
Give your head a shake man!
simonpwood
Well-known member
But Canon only entered the Cinema market in November 2011 with the launch of the 'C' brand. We'll need to wait a year or two to really gauge the impact. Everything from Canon up till then was consumer & prosumer based.
William_Robinette
Shallow Member
You know who I find complains most about RED? The people who can't afford it. And really they are dirt cheap. Like dirt dirt cheap for what you get. Anyone remember how much HDcam or DVCproHD tapes were? Or the damn decks that you had to get to digitize? Those things were $40,000 ALONE. $1k for 64 gigs of media that can handle everything from the lowliest 2k (the lowliest!) all the way up to 5K 120fps raw? Cheap. Batteries? No change for AB and v-lock prices over the past 10 years I can see. Shocking if you're used to getting $80 batts in best buy maybe. If you make your living doing it.., cheap.
Every RED I have ever used, or know of in use, including my own which came out of the box and onto a film set running 15 hours a day for two weeks straight has been bullet proof. Problems with other cameras? Sure? Sh*t happens, it sucks. If Sony or Canon ran a forum I'm sure you'd hear about their problems too. Ya know what, a lot of people working with their REDs don't have time to post about how great they are on the internet cause, you know... they're working.
Jeeze. Back to Canon.
Simon Shasha
Well-known member
The only good news, in my opinion, to come from this overpriced amalgamation is that it shows what Digic 5 is capable of. Perhaps the Magic Lantern crew will be able to harness the power of the Digic 5 processor and bring truly sharp 1080P to the 5DMK3...here's the hoping so.
mjmcneese
Veteran
Canon does not manufacture products to be anyone's hero. They're not your friend. I'm certain that no one with any amount of power at Canon is trying to position a product to save the lowly independent filmmaker from having to spend money on appropriately priced products. If you need the features that a camera has, you will buy/rent it. Period. There is nothing else out there like the 1DC. To be able to shoot high-rez 24fps on CF cards in a DSLR form factor with Canon lenses...seems like a viable product for many projects.
Why not consider going to more of a camera-renting workflow? That's how my business has turned, and I no longer have to worry about buying a camera that's only gonna "last" a year...or less. I can always offer the latest greatest thing, and it doesn't cost me a dime. Nevermind...I need you all to buy them so that you can use them to shoot demo material that I will look at to judge what camera I'm going to rent next.
Why not consider going to more of a camera-renting workflow? That's how my business has turned, and I no longer have to worry about buying a camera that's only gonna "last" a year...or less. I can always offer the latest greatest thing, and it doesn't cost me a dime. Nevermind...I need you all to buy them so that you can use them to shoot demo material that I will look at to judge what camera I'm going to rent next.
alpi69
Veteran
Well RED has a digital workflow and money is not an issue. So if a buggy RED costs them a few hours they don't care as much as a small production that scrapes every penny together.
And since money is not an issue they futureproof their film in 4k. And that is a reason why these new cams are priced high: you either think you need 4k or you can't afford it. Simple as that.
Concerning the EOS 1D-C, there is something of GREAT concern to me:
And for all of us in PAL land?
25P is consigned only to HD, no 4K?
Or do we have to buy an overpriced European body?
A press release oversight?
Hmmm. Gives me pause for reflection.
Edit:
Just looked at the UK (a PAL country) press release, 24p only.
%$#& that !
And for all of us in PAL land?
25P is consigned only to HD, no 4K?
Or do we have to buy an overpriced European body?
A press release oversight?
Hmmm. Gives me pause for reflection.
Edit:
Just looked at the UK (a PAL country) press release, 24p only.
%$#& that !
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Simon Shasha
Well-known member
Perhaps it's different for people living in the USA, but in Australia, rental prices are extremely expensive...it is far more logical here to own a camera then to rent.
Exactly. So let's not judge RED by what Canon has yet to do. Let us not praise what does not exist, and disparage that which does exist. One does not make movies with cameras that have yet to be made. Does any of this really need spelling out?
You know who I find complains most about RED? The people who can't afford it. And really they are dirt cheap. Like dirt dirt cheap for what you get. Anyone remember how much HDcam or DVCproHD tapes were? Or the damn decks that you had to get to digitize? Those things were $40,000 ALONE. $1k for 64 gigs of media that can handle everything from the lowliest 2k (the lowliest!) all the way up to 5K 120fps raw? Cheap. Batteries? No change for AB and v-lock prices over the past 10 years I can see. Shocking if you're used to getting $80 batts in best buy maybe. If you make your living doing it.., cheap.
Every RED I have ever used, or know of in use, including my own which came out of the box and onto a film set running 15 hours a day for two weeks straight has been bullet proof. Problems with other cameras? Sure? Sh*t happens, it sucks. If Sony or Canon ran a forum I'm sure you'd hear about their problems too. Ya know what, a lot of people working with their REDs don't have time to post about how great they are on the internet cause, you know... they're working.
Jeeze. Back to Canon.
That was then, this is now. A 64GB SSD is nothing special. I happen to be one of REDs biggest fans. Get off your high horse.
