Canon Unveils New Prosumer HDV Line: XH G1 and XH A1

ecking said:
Yeah 24f may not be the easiest to edit right now, but remember now there will we 3x as many 24f cameras on the market and if these sell well(which is a given) NLE companies will have no choice but to support it.

*I just hope in comes in a free FCP download instead of fcp 6 lol*
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24F works pretty well with FCP 5 already. It does require capturing with a free utility program and converting to a better editing codec (PhotoJPEG@75% quality is good) via MPEG Streamclip. It's slightly more complicated than using FCP to capture but I've found that intermediate codec editing is highly preferable to MPEG2 editing, and FCP has a number of good codecs to choose from.

The cool thing about taking this route is MPEG Streamclip allows you to perfectly export 1080 24p clips from 24F captures.
 
I predict (based off no solid information) that Panasonic will release an AVC-HD camera in the same price range as the current DVX. It will probably be hard drive based and offer recording to SD cards as well. It won't have the DVCPRO-HD recording or P2 storage so that will still leave plenty of room for the HVX on the more pro end of things. But I bet Panasonic will undercut Canon by about $400 while still offering things like 24p and a nice Leica lens. Variable frame rate, probably not. I also doubt we'd see a DV tape drive. Things will really get interesting I'm sure.
 
Elton said:
What are the bit rates proposed for AVC HD?
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Anywhere from 5 up to 18 megabits, perhaps 24 if some reports are to be believed (but others think that the "24" references 18mbps video + 6 megabits of audio).

AVC is two to 2.5 times as efficient as MPEG-2, so 18 megabits of AVC-HD should deliver picture quality about akin to XDCAM-HD running at 36 megabits.


If this XH-A1 sells like hot cakes could it lead to a signifigant price drop for the HVX?
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Well, that depends on a couple of things. If it steals sales from the HVX, then sure Panasonic might need to respond. But I think there's likely something else going to develop -- I think the A1 may indeed sell like hotcakes, but it'll be stealing sales from the other HDV products. I really have a hard time understanding why someone would buy a Z1 or FX1 against this A1, and I think a lot of people will have a harder time justifying an HD110 or HD200 or HD250 against these.

I think if someone was wanting a tape-based HDV product, the A1 is looking unbeatable in that market segment.

But not everyone wants that. HVX is in a whole different ballgame. It's an entirely different beast. It's tapeless, it's 4:2:2, it's variable-frame-rate, it's multiple-format, it's frame-discrete compression, it's DVCPRO50, it's just a very different product entirely. I know this'll probably annoy some people but I'll say it anyway: the HVX is a word processor among a sea of typewriters. The XH A1 may be the new king of the typewriters, but it's still a tape-based long-GOP compressed-audio "typewriter."

So -- would an A1 cause a price drop in the HVX? Only if people quit buying HVXs, I'd wager. Right now the factory still can't keep up with the orders and they're selling two and a half times more HVXs than they predicted. As long as that stays current (regardless of whatever other product comes out) then no price reduction would happen. But if sales dried up, then sure they'd respond, one would assume...
 
roxics said:
I predict (based off no solid information) that Panasonic will release an AVC-HD camera in the same price range as the current DVX. It will probably be hard drive based and offer recording to SD cards as well. It won't have the DVCPRO-HD recording or P2 storage so that will still leave plenty of room for the HVX on the more pro end of things. But I bet Panasonic will undercut Canon by about $400 while still offering things like 24p and a nice Leica lens. Variable frame rate, probably not. I also doubt we'd see a DV tape drive. Things will really get interesting I'm sure.
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That's exactly what I think too.
 
The A1 isnt going to hurt the HVX.. the DVX is more on its radar. But remember.. the DVX is 3 years old now...
 
Jarred Land said:
The A1 isnt going to hurt the HVX.. the DVX is more on its radar. But remember.. the DVX is 3 years old now...
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Yeah, and I don't think this camera is even aimed at the HVX consumer.
 
Sounds very interesting, as I am big fan of the AVC codec for distribution...but it sounds like AVC will be acquisition-only for most. If you think MPEG2 is hard for a computer to encode/decode--try AVC/H.264! So if it's long-GOP too I would hope that they make a good camcorder that really exploits that extra efficiency...but there's the rub; that extra efficiency leads to inefficiency on a timeline.

I think this will be another job for CineForm, PhotoJPEG, etc.
 
roxics said:
I predict (based off no solid information) that Panasonic will release an AVC-HD camera in the same price range as the current DVX. It will probably be hard drive based and offer recording to SD cards as well. It won't have the DVCPRO-HD recording or P2 storage so that will still leave plenty of room for the HVX on the more pro end of things. But I bet Panasonic will undercut Canon by about $400 while still offering things like 24p and a nice Leica lens. Variable frame rate, probably not. I also doubt we'd see a DV tape drive. Things will really get interesting I'm sure.
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I'll cross my fingers to that!
 
I think this will be another job for CineForm, PhotoJPEG, etc.
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Quite the opposite, with any luck. AVC is everywhere and getting more prevalent. IPTV, DirecTV, Dish, European HD broadcasts, blu-ray, HD-DVD, even the ATSC is looking at revising broadcasts in America to support AVC.

So, graphics card manufacturers are adding AVC decoding (and perhaps encoding) to their cards. That should give us high-speed high-quality real-time (or faster-than-realtime) decoding. So with an AVC-equipped graphics card AVC-HD should be very editable.
 
Elton said:
Sounds very interesting, as I am big fan of the AVC codec for distribution...but it sounds like AVC will be acquisition-only for most. If you think MPEG2 is hard for a computer to encode/decode--try AVC/H.264! So if it's long-GOP too I would hope that they make a good camcorder that really exploits that extra efficiency...but there's the rub; that extra efficiency leads to inefficiency on a timeline.

I think this will be another job for CineForm, PhotoJPEG, etc.
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as Barry says.. AVC isn't just some random new format.. its superior in almost every way to Mpeg 2... Mpeg 4 / H264 / AVC has been buliding strong for the last couple of years.. and im excited to see Panasonic and Sony both rolling out this format.
 
So after sleeping on it, I can see no reason to keep my DVX after the A1 comes out. I love Panasonic and I love the DVX but this things makes it obsolete (in my opinion). If the image is there (which I don't doubt). My DVX will hit the eBay road a lot sooner then I thought.
 
Jarred Land said:
The A1 isnt going to hurt the HVX.. the DVX is more on its radar. But remember.. the DVX is 3 years old now...
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I agree/disagree :). The bar has been raised from DV and now that the price is similar EVERYONE can get into HD and get quality film-like 24p results. If the FX1 had a good 24F/P mode like Canon's I'm sure the DVX's run would've been a little shorter, but now that Canon's stepping up to the plate--everyone benefits--and sooner rather than later everyone will be shooting some acquisition form of HD. I think that AVC DVX successor has most likely been put on the front burner now.

I think you may be wrong about hurting the HVX sales though. There are a lot of folks that extended themselves financially and bought the HVX but winced and only purchased one P2 card with no Firestore/P2 Store, extra cards etc. If the A1 basically delivers XL-H1 image quality in a cool little handycam, that will certainly weigh into consideration for a number of potential HVX buyers. But the HVX has its totally unique qualities (var. frame rates/dv100 etc.) that will continue to make it a best seller.

I'm personally glad there's vigorous competition in the sub-$5K range now.
 
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Elton said:
I agree/disagree :). The bar has been raised from DV and now that the price is similar EVERYONE can get into HD and get quality film-like 24p results. If the FX1 had a good 24F mode like Canon's I'm sure the DVX's run would've been a little shorter, but now that Canon's stepping up to the plate--everyone benefits--and sooner rather than later everyone will be shooting some acquisition form of HD. I think that AVC DVX successor is has been put on the front burner now.

I think you may be wrong about hurting the HVX sales though. There are a lot of folks that extended themselves financially and bought the HVX but winced and only purchaesd one P2 card with no Firestore/P2 Store, extra cards etc. If the A1 basically delivers XL-H1 image quality in a cool little handycam, that will certainly weigh into consideration for a number of potential HVX buyers. But the HVX has its totally unique qualities (var. frame rates/dv100 etc.) that will continue to make it a best seller.

I'm personally glad there's vigorous competition in the sub-$5K range now.
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There's no arguing with that logic.
 
yeah Elton i agree with you.. everyone wins when we start seeing decent HD cameras in the sub $4k pricepoint.
 
I'm wondering how soon we'll get footage from the camera.

Honestly? I have only owned an older Pana cam and if the A1 is producing the same images as an H1, I think I'll finally settle into buying my own camera instead of trying to get my workplace to do so.

Four-thousand as a suggested retail, we'll probably see it for thirty-seven hundred or so making it even more tempting.

As far as editing goes, and Elton you might be able to answer this:

Has anyone had success with 24f footage in Final Cut Pro? I saw a thread on DVinfo started by Rawls on the subject but there didn't seem to be much movement on it.

Has anyone had any success running Canopus or Vegas on the new Intel Macs?
 
David Jimerson said:
You can't spend your life waiting for the next thing, because the next thing is always coming. Just go shoot.
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I didn't, that was the point. I bought the DVX, and I shot a 48 Hour Film Project with other stuff lined up. Strangely enough, I actually "go shoot" so much that I have a group of people that like/want to shoot movies with me.

I'm just saying, wouldn't all of the aforementioned facts look a helluva lot nicer in 1080i?

Therefore, current plan is probably try to make an extra thousand dollars by doing something, see how this whole A1 thing pans out, then maybe sell (as much as it hurts to say) my DVX and move up to HDV. that scenario actually works well cuz I use Vegas now and Vegas supports HDV, correct?
 
I'm confused by some of the comments here... Isn't it obvious? If you make a camera with interlaced chips you won't get 'true' progressive footage. Full stop. It's a fundamental design decision.
 
I don't understand how Canon's HD integrated lens camera isn't a direct competitor to Panasonic's HD integrated lens camera?

How is it exactly that Canon's HD camera is targeting a 3-year old SD non-widescreen camera?
 
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