Canon T2i with L Glass vs RED Camera

[Cieloent]

Might have a possible project coming up ( crosses fingers ) for an up and coming music artist.

This is something they want to hit the television stations with. I have shot some really good footage with my T2i and have seen major videos broadcasted with a 7D. My question to the community or people who truly are working in the professional industry is.


Would you shoot on a Red Camera or Canon T2i?

I do not own a RED and have never shot on one, but I believe that I can learn to use any piece of gear. Now on the flip side of things we can save some money by using a DSLR and renting some very nice glass and lighting for the shoot.


Opinions please,

Thanks

 

[Kholi]

You really only need to ask if the production is worth the BEST image you can afford.

If it's not, then just shoot with a T2i. If it is, there's not much of a choice: you shoot RED or better when you want the best image you can net.

As you did specifically ask for people who are actually WORKING in "the industry", that's always the way I decide. Heee~

 

[Cieloent]

You really only need to ask if the production is worth the BEST image you can afford.

If it's not, then just shoot with a T2i. If it is, there's not much of a choice: you shoot RED or better when you want the best image you can net.

As you did specifically ask for people who are actually WORKING in "the industry", that's always the way I decide. Heee~

Well I have not shot on a RED so I cannot compare, but I do know that outside of film generally shooting with a RED camera is the next best thing. Obviously these DSLRS can produce a beautiful image as well. With the correct lighting and glass it is to my understanding that an HDSLR can stand toe to toe with the big boys.


Maybe I would love if Barry or someone who has exact charts and test to compare the exact image quality difference from shooting with a RED as to with a T2i/7D.

 

[Kholi]

Well I have not shot on a RED so I cannot compare, but I do know that outside of film generally shooting with a RED camera is the next best thing. Obviously these DSLRS can produce a beautiful image as well. With the correct lighting and glass it is to my understanding that an HDSLR can stand toe to toe with the big boys.


Maybe I would love if Barry or someone who has exact charts and test to compare the exact image quality difference from shooting with a RED as to with a T2i/7D.

Unfortunately, that's a misunderstanding. A pipe-dream theory, honestly. A well shot RED image will always stomp the blood from any well shot DSLR image.

RED also isn't the next best thing to film, F35 constantly and consistently trumps the RED. If I had the money and choice, it would always be F35. Please see: TRON trailer for example.

If all you know is DSLR, though, I wouldn't bother trying to procure a RED for an important project. As someone who's not a working professional, you're better off shooting with what you know until you're in a position where you can shoot something else without the stresses of delivering your best.

 

[Cieloent]

Unfortunately, that's a misunderstanding. A pipe-dream theory, honestly. A well shot RED image will always stomp the blood from any well shot DSLR image.

RED also isn't the next best thing to film, F35 constantly and consistently trumps the RED. If I had the money and choice, it would always be F35. Please see: TRON trailer for example.

If all you know is DSLR, though, I wouldn't bother trying to procure a RED for an important project. As someone who's not a working professional, you're better off shooting with what you know until you're in a position where you can shoot something else without the stresses of delivering your best.

Thank You for your thoughts , I have been getting by shooting a lot of projects on a DSLR. I think your choice of words are maybe a little harsh though. Many professional music projects have been shot on a Canon 7D. Maybe it's because of the budget or maybe because the image quality is good enough?

Here's one recently



Now this image quality is perfect for me , so how would a Red Camera be better than this?

 

[Kegan]

Your last line sums it up pretty well. If the image quality is good enough for you, why would it matter if the quality from a RED is better? In this case, like Kholi advised...shoot with what you know if its suitable for the project.

Kegan

 

[Barry_Green]

No question, hands down, if the budget supports it and the project is appropriate for it and you have a great D.I.T., you go with the Red. Properly-shot Red will produce a much more solid image than any SLR. It should be obvious ($30,000 camera setup vs. $3,000 camera setup) and the results will show it. The main areas the Red will really triumph on are in wide shots, sharpness, and post-processing robustness.

Now, there are other factors besides just image. You have to be able to get the best from the product, and Red is a unique beast. If you know the t2i in and out, but have never worked on a Red before and are planning to just pick it up and start shooting ... I'd say use the t2i instead. You need someone who knows the Red. If you're renting from an owner-operator, the way to go would be to hire Kholi and have him bring his Red. Don't try to just rent a Red from someone, because the first time it won't boot or crashes in the middle of a take or the first time you turn on the false-color exposure system, you won't know what to do. So any Red shoot needs an experienced Red operator. You can be director and director of photography, but a Red One needs an operator.

If that can't fit in the budget, then I wouldn't even open up that can of worms, I'd say just go with what you know.

 

[reem12]

Cieloent, you half to give a little more info on what it will be distributed out to and if your end result will be big screen, bluray or sd dvd. If you put your budget in lighting, great glass, set design, props, ect, there is no reason why your canon couldn't get a comparable image to the red camera. I think you already know that these dslrs can hold there own or else you wouldn't have brought up the fat joe video. This sounds like a bait into another red vrs, dsrl war.

 

[Kholi]

Thank You for your thoughts , I have been getting by shooting a lot of projects on a DSLR. I think your choice of words are maybe a little harsh though. Many professional music projects have been shot on a Canon 7D. Maybe it's because of the budget or maybe because the image quality is good enough?

Here's one recently



Now this image quality is perfect for me , so how would a Red Camera be better than this?

Well, let's consider what the music video "industry" is: a farce. It's dead. You hit the nail on the head as to why people are shooting on the 7D. It's cheap and it's good enough. There isn't any money for better gear when the producers, etc want to stuff that money into their pockets to feed their kids and a certain lifestyle. And, bet your money there isn't enough funding to do that otherwise.

If you want to see examples of Music Videos that are good, you can check Noble Jones' work. He still shoots film and at the very least, RED, and it's obvious why.

Second, you used the perfect phrase by saying "I've been getting by." Well, that's fine, and if it's all about "just getting by" then more power to anyone who's on that mentality. There are a lot of people who refuse to just get by, though. I know friends that would rather lose money from their own pockets and shoot RED over making a little extra and shooting with a 7D or 5D. I've come to a point where I'm the same way.

As far as how can RED be better than that? Maybe you would have to see it on a larger source monitor and clearer to understand, and it's not really worth going into, if you ever do get the chance to shoot RED I implore you to use your T2i right beside it, treat both images properly (in shooting and POST) and let me know how you feel about it afterward.


Why compromise on your product or project when there are so many people trying to do the EXACT same thing as you? At a time like this, delivering the BEST you can deliver on ALL fronts is what's going to help you stand out from the rest of the kids swimming in the pool.

So, you decide for yourself, of course. I'm not telling you what to use, only gave you a question to ask yourself: is my project worth the best base image my money can buy? Yes or No?

That's all you really need to figure.

 

[Cieloent]

Your last line sums it up pretty well. If the image quality is good enough for you, why would it matter if the quality from a RED is better? In this case, like Kholi advised...shoot with what you know if its suitable for the project.

Kegan

I say it is good enough, but always like to see the other side of the coin. Obviously a small clip online will look good, but what about when it is actually broadcasted on Tv.

So this camera

is better than a Red?

Cieloent, you half to give a little more info on what it will be distributed out to and if your end result will be big screen, bluray or sd dvd. If you put your budget in lighting, great glass, set design, props, ect, there is no reason why your canon couldn't get a comparable image to the red camera. I think you already know that these dslrs can hold there own or else you wouldn't have brought up the fat joe video. This sounds like a bait into another red vrs, dsrl war.

No, this is not a bait and if you think it was I apologize. I am going to be shooting a project in a couple of months and just wanted to know if a Red camera would be significantly better than my little T2i. I know the RED would look better, but is it truly worth the money vs quality better? This project will obviously be shown online , tv and broadcasted during the artists live shows.

Also here is a video shot on a Red Camera




From this example I think the RED looks very good, but I would need to judge it better I guess on a larger screen because at this size all video look pretty good.

 

[Kholi]

I am going to be shooting a project in a couple of months and just wanted to know if a Red camera would be significantly better than my little T2i. I know the RED would look better, but is it truly worth the money vs quality better?

You're asking a question that only you can answer for yourself. It's no different from asking "should I buy this diamond ring for my girlfriend or get her a cubic zirconia? They look the same. Is the diamond really that much better?"

Well, in the end, how much is she worth to YOU?

Nobody else can answer that.

I'm going to tell you, though... hahahaha... A real diamond is a real diamond. And a RED is a RED.

 

[Kholi]

No question, hands down, if the budget supports it and the project is appropriate for it and you have a great D.I.T., you go with the Red. Properly-shot Red will produce a much more solid image than any SLR. It should be obvious ($30,000 camera setup vs. $3,000 camera setup) and the results will show it. The main areas the Red will really triumph on are in wide shots, sharpness, and post-processing robustness.

Now, there are other factors besides just image. You have to be able to get the best from the product, and Red is a unique beast. If you know the t2i in and out, but have never worked on a Red before and are planning to just pick it up and start shooting ... I'd say use the t2i instead. You need someone who knows the Red. If you're renting from an owner-operator, the way to go would be to hire Kholi and have him bring his Red. Don't try to just rent a Red from someone, because the first time it won't boot or crashes in the middle of a take or the first time you turn on the false-color exposure system, you won't know what to do. So any Red shoot needs an experienced Red operator. You can be director and director of photography, but a Red One needs an operator.

If that can't fit in the budget, then I wouldn't even open up that can of worms, I'd say just go with what you know.

Barry's post pretty much outlines exactly what you need to know. And, the reason why Music Videos are opting for smaller cameras. Even though I can man an entire RED package by myself, I'd prefer not to and would rather hire one to two more people to back me up.

Cheap music video producers don't want to hear that, at all.

 

[Cieloent]

Well, let's consider what the music video "industry" is: a farce. It's dead. You hit the nail on the head as to why people are shooting on the 7D. It's cheap and it's good enough. There isn't any money for better gear when the producers, etc want to stuff that money into their pockets to feed their kids and a certain lifestyle. And, bet your money there isn't enough funding to do that otherwise.

If you want to see examples of Music Videos that are good, you can check Noble Jones' work. He still shoots film and at the very least, RED, and it's obvious why.

Second, you used the perfect phrase by saying "I've been getting by." Well, that's fine, and if it's all about "just getting by" then more power to anyone who's on that mentality. There are a lot of people who refuse to just get by, though. I know friends that would rather lose money from their own pockets and shoot RED over making a little extra and shooting with a 7D or 5D. I've come to a point where I'm the same way.

As far as how can RED be better than that? Maybe you would have to see it on a larger source monitor and clearer to understand, and it's not really worth going into, if you ever do get the chance to shoot RED I implore you to use your T2i right beside it, treat both images properly (in shooting and POST) and let me know how you feel about it afterward.


Why compromise on your product or project when there are so many people trying to do the EXACT same thing as you? At a time like this, delivering the BEST you can deliver on ALL fronts is what's going to help you stand out from the rest of the kids swimming in the pool.

So, you decide for yourself, of course. I'm not telling you what to use, only gave you a question to ask yourself: is my project worth the best base image my money can buy? Yes or No?

That's all you really need to figure.

You have amazing work and I inspire to get to that level one day so their should be no fear of your job from us "kids" like you say. This video was shot on a Canon 5d and it simply looks amazing. If I can achieve something like this then I would be more than happy and make a living to take care of myself and family...... My only question really was though can you or someone post an example of some RED footage that simply cannot be done with an HDSLR. IF it truly looks better then I will hire the correct people so we can shoot on RED, but if the T2i looks very good as well then maybe the RED is not needed.

 

[Ian-T]

Really it all just reflects the kind of world we are living in today. I wouldn’t necessarily say they are cheap producers but it’s more like the DSLRs are to Red (and other pro cams) like MP3’s are to high quality CDs. It has become (or is deemed) “good enough.”

 

[Barry_Green]

So this camera

is better than a Red?

For making reality television? Of course it is, it's a million times better than a Red.

"Better" is always subjective; there is no such thing as overall "better", there's only "better for a specific purpose."

And for the purpose of live broadcasting, or event shooting, or news gathering, or reality TV, yes that Sony would be far more suitable than the Red.

And for the purpose of taking still photos, the t2i would be far, far better than the Red.

But for the purpose of making digital cinema images, the Red is a better camera for that. There are reasons that a Red One body costs $17,500 and a t2i body costs $799.

 

[Kholi]

You have amazing work and I inspire to get to that level one day so their should be no fear of your job from us "kids" like you say. This video was shot on a Canon 5d and it simply looks amazing. If I can achieve something like this then I would be more than happy and make a living to take care of myself and family...... My only question really was though can you or someone post an example of some RED footage that simply cannot be done with an HDSLR. IF it truly looks better then I will hire the correct people so we can shoot on RED, but if the T2i looks very good as well then maybe the RED is not needed.

1) Fear of my job? I LOL'd. What is with the DSLR mentality that people are going to start taking jobs? It's like people in corporate america being afraid of their jobs being outsourced to India. Come on, now. I dunno who started this but it's silly and needs to stop.

2) Kids was a GENERAL term. If you take everything to heart, you won't last very long in this field. Count on that.


3) It has nothing to do with "cannot be done with an HDSLR". You're missing the entire point. You can shoot anything with any camera. You can do anything with any image.

It only boils down to DO YOU WANT TO DO IT WITH THIS CAMERA? If you think that 5D video looks good and that's ALL you ever want, then why even bother starting this topic? If that's your pinnacle, then you already have made your choice and you're basically just spinning everyone's wheels, and your own.

A Director of Photography that knows the ins and outs of both a RED and a DSLR, on the SAME shoot, will more-than-likely produce a better image from the RED. It is simply a better tool. Much like a Chainsaw is a better tool for cutting down a tree than a hacksaw.

 

[Kholi]

Really it all just reflects the kind of world we are living in today. I wouldn’t necessarily say they are cheap producers but it’s more like the DSLRs are to Red (and other pro cams) like MP3’s are to high quality CDs. It has become (or is deemed) “good enough.”

No, it's not. Anyone who does this for a living knows that it's exactly that: cheap producers. You have to realize that there isn't enough money in music videos to sustain a lifestyle. Most of the people doing them also do something else on the side.

These people literally short change every aspect of production to put money in their own pockets.

There are exceptions, those exceptions are in the larger production houses with top tier music video directors, names, etc. Here in Los Angeles, I can name a few that actually pay me my Day Rate to AC or DIT. And, although my day rate is absolutely fair, if you heard the number you might do like the other producers do: frown.

The shoots that I get my dayrate on definitely are not utilizing DSLRs. Although at a time, for a few jobs, it was happening. People wised up and it's no longer an option

 

[Kholi]

For making reality television? Of course it is, it's a million times better than a Red.

"Better" is always subjective; there is no such thing as overall "better", there's only "better for a specific purpose."

And for the purpose of live broadcasting, or event shooting, or news gathering, or reality TV, yes that Sony would be far more suitable than the Red.

And for the purpose of taking still photos, the t2i would be far, far better than the Red.

But for the purpose of making digital cinema images, the Red is a better camera for that. There are reasons that a Red One body costs $17,500 and a t2i body costs $799.

=[ As simply outlined as that is, where is the disconnect that disables people from getting it?

 

[Cieloent]

1) Fear of my job? I LOL'd. What is with the DSLR mentality that people are going to start taking jobs? It's like people in corporate america being afraid of their jobs being outsourced to India. Come on, now. I dunno who started this but it's silly and needs to stop.

2) Kids was a GENERAL term. If you take everything to heart, you won't last very long in this field. Count on that.


3) It has nothing to do with "cannot be done with an HDSLR". You're missing the entire point. You can shoot anything with any camera. You can do anything with any image.

It only boils down to DO YOU WANT TO DO IT WITH THIS CAMERA? If you think that 5D video looks good and that's ALL you ever want, then why even bother starting this topic? If that's your pinnacle, then you already have made your choice and you're basically just spinning everyone's wheels, and your own.

A Director of Photography that knows the ins and outs of both a RED and a DSLR, on the SAME shoot, will more-than-likely produce a better image from the RED. It is simply a better tool. Much like a Chainsaw is a better tool for cutting down a tree than a hacksaw.

Well I lol'ed as well. I see RED in your sig and see that you seem like you support them. So while this thread might have gone slightly off topic I still feel that it is relevant. So if you tell me don't take comments to the heart then you should do the same.

I feel that there is nothing better than someone with a fresh mind , the underdog is someone people always need to look out for. What this means is something any man has done can be replicated. If "RainFall Films" is the stick to be measured by then I know what I need to do.


In the end all I wanted was visually examples of RED vs Canon HDSLR to decide what would be best for my next project. A lot of hear say and not actual examples of "Music Videos".

Seems almost like this thread was pointless.

No, it's not. Anyone who does this for a living knows that it's exactly that: cheap producers. You have to realize that there isn't enough money in music videos to sustain a lifestyle. Most of the people doing them also do something else on the side.

These people literally short change every aspect of production to put money in their own pockets.

There are exceptions, those exceptions are in the larger production houses with top tier music video directors, names, etc. Here in Los Angeles, I can name a few that actually pay me my Day Rate to AC or DIT. And, although my day rate is absolutely fair, if you heard the number you might do like the other producers do: frown.

The shoots that I get my dayrate on definitely are not utilizing DSLRs. Although at a time, for a few jobs, it was happening. People wised up and it's no longer an option

So you are saying that all of the work Motion Family , Parris, etc. have done with these DSLRs means they are cheap producers and lack quality? I'm done speaking to an ignorant mind such as yourself

ps. RainFall Films watch your back!

 

[Huy Vu]

There seems to be this myth that professionals are somehow being duped into using expensive and higher end equipments when there are cheaper alternative out there that are "just as good." Trust me, if the pros are shelling out the big bucks it's not because they're old fogeys who like to do things the hard way; it's because you get what you pay for with high end gears. I've tried quite a few budget solutions in term of film equipments and I can tell you that in 90% of cases, it's worth paying that premium over "good enough" alternative if you can afford it.