Canon T2i with L Glass vs RED Camera

[Cieloent]

This thread just wont end........

It went from is this camera better than this, to of course it is better because that other camera is not professional.

That is the reason that started this argument and what the Mods and most people seem to miss the point what happened here. Also how crazy is it that someone can compare a HDSLR to garden tools as opposed to cutting hair clippers?


Nothing positive has come really from this thread. It's like yeah you can use a DSLR but it's not the right tool and this and that. Now you have people who have been working in the industry for so many years saying you need to pay attention to me because of this and that.


Well let me let you "Old Dogs" in on a secret , there is a new wave of film makers that are changing the game. Yes we thought we needed Film, RED but now the living proof is what is being done with these HDSLR cameras. Know your limitations and work around them.

Trust me when I say that I thank this forum, community and everyone else. I never meant any disrespect and if I did I apologize. The final view is like this

DSLR is an excellent tool but to many pros out there , there are limitations that one would generally not use and would "prefer" a better camera for the job.

My point of view and many others is, YES we understand the limitation and we will work around this. We play to the strength of these cameras and deliver the best quality possible. Most people at home and your audience cannot tell the difference between most cameras.


Finally I will say this again, my apologies to everyone let me get back to work.

 

[Kholi]

But surely shooting on a DSLR would be the ideal situation for someone wanting to make a film like PRIMER these days? Very similar look, far cheaper, don't have to shoot just one or 2 takes per shot...I'm more than happy to work around moire, jello, etc., if it means having as many takes as I want to get the shot. And on the RETURN OF THE KING EXTENDED DVD, Elijah talks about watching the rushes from the previous day for an emotional scene...only to see they were all OUT OF FOCUS and had to be reshot! Even on the biggest movie project in history, there are workarounds!

Hmm. I think at first glance this is a pretty valuable bit in the arsenal, the ability to do several takes inexpensively. However, let's recall what the greatest expense on any set, at any moment, really is:

Time.

The limitations imposed by film are the kinds of limitations that helped to make PRIMER that much better. Consider the sloppiness of a director that doesn't know what he wants, doesn't know what he needs. He burns TIME on location or set and at the end of the day, we have terrabytes of footage or we've come away missing shots. We need pickups, etc, and that costs more time, and time costs more money.

By condemning yourself to a two shot maximum (this is just an example), what are you going to do when you go into a project, now? You're going to have rehearsals much more frequently and you're going to block much more efficiently before shooting. There's no TIME to waste, thus no film to waste, either. This is the way a working set operates, for the most part.

So, the ability to shoot a host of takes on a certain shot or scene isn't bad, but neither is being limited in your shooting medium to getting it right in the first one or two, three perhaps.

You're right with what you say, but that's probably why most movies and TV shows are pedestrian. They come up with a cool idea....and fail to develop characters or a proper story around it. Yet none of the major studios are going into liquidation, so they must be making a profit so this cycle will continue. I should have said "GOOD movies are about storytelling".

I'll agree with ya on that! Even good Comedies are well told stories about individuals. Most of this industry is about marketable ideas and characters, though. The more likely your lead can become an action figure, the more likely you are to see an avid interest in your project. Heeee.

NOOOOOO!!!!!! That is the whole point of this digital revolution, and especially DSLRs. Now anyone can be a participant in what has traditionally been the EXHORBITANT cost of filmmaking. It's Coppola's dream of a 12 year old being able to make a film that gets worldwide distribution. Let's face it, the DVX was a revolution, but to be honest it only looked like BAD 16mm. My wife, who knows nothing about filmmaking, watched NOVEMBER and thought it looked like crap. But on a big HD TV, DSLRs can look very similar to what the majority of people outside the industry (99% of viewers) see on TV. HOUSE is a perfect example of this. And let's not forget the 5D can get SHALLOWER DOF than 35mm!!! So for the first time in history, these consumer products can actually do something better than a 35mm film camera. Wow.

I do think that a majority of the audience will only be able to subconsciously tell the difference, and at a certain point--barring the content is there--it just doesn't matter to them.

I think DSLRs are closer to the acceptable aesthetic, undoubtedly. I'm not so much saying that they can't be used to great effect, because it's pretty obvious that they CAN. I think there's a major difference in image when you go beyond a 32" LCD, comparing RED and DSLRs. But, again, some people might not see it or haven't had the chance to see the differences.

I did very much dislike the 5D at first, however the way that Miranda shot TRON made me rethink the value of a full frame sensor. Granted, it was shot F35, but for a while I believed it was 65mm.

[qupte]
Again, it's back to storytelling. Sure, there are so many slick productions out there, but good storytelling is a rare commodity. Chris Nolan made his debut for 6K, and has gone from strength to strength, but he's an English major and with his brother he makes sure his scripts are always super tight.

PS do you know anything about Shane's second film - been a while![/quote]

Yeah! haha. The Nolan camp is WAY too sacred to even mention here. Every single facet of a Nolan property is a-game, which again is called putting your best foot forward in every aspect. Whatever you can afford.

Inception is my movie of the year!

I have no idea what Shane Carruth is doing. I checked about a year ago and nothing. I don't think he's going to be doing anything else, and it might be a good thing. Haha

Primer is an awesome feature, it's definitely a very particular one!

 

[Blaine]

However, let's recall what the greatest expense on any set, at any moment, really is:

Time.

The limitations imposed by film are the kinds of limitations that helped to make PRIMER that much better. Consider the sloppiness of a director that doesn't know what he wants, doesn't know what he needs. He burns TIME on location or set and at the end of the day, we have terrabytes of footage or we've come away missing shots. We need pickups, etc, and that costs more time, and time costs more money.

By condemning yourself to a two shot maximum (this is just an example), what are you going to do when you go into a project, now? You're going to have rehearsals much more frequently and you're going to block much more efficiently before shooting. There's no TIME to waste, thus no film to waste, either. This is the way a working set operates, for the most part.

So, the ability to shoot a host of takes on a certain shot or scene isn't bad, but neither is being limited in your shooting medium to getting it right in the first one or two, three perhaps.

This can't be overstated! Because it's easy to do extra takes, people do, sometime (ofttimes) when they're not needed. And as Kholi stated, that takes up valuable time. If you've got a location for a day or two, you've got to make the most of it.

 

[Kholi]

It's always a challenge to bring in new users. But Newton's laws and basic human psychology are of value here. Sometimes, what some of the seasoned vets having been emphasized about DSLR's comes across as quite negative and critical - so it's no surprise that the threads sometimes turn ugly. Negativity breeds negativity. I understand the intention might be "objectivity" but objectivity does not exist, not in nature and certainly not in views on cameras, even by the most brilliant DP or camera engineer.

You're right about that. Anything that smells like an anti-DSLR sentence is worth hanging, stabbing, and especially ramming down the throat "BUT HOUSE WAS SHOT ON A 5D! OMG".

I still haven't seen a post detailing the fact that the episode's budget was still more than most any here will ever get a whiff of, and the crew surely wasn't comprised of one man.

I totally agree we need to respect the experience of those who've been here from the start (I consider myself in this camp, actually). But we need to respect those that disagree and respect the enthusiasm and excitement that the new DVXuers' are bringing.

To be honest, the only people being disrespected are the people who've been here. As soon as you cap misinformation, you're labeled the anti-DSLR Satan. At no point did I attack the original poster. I sure as heck was attacked, though. IT was funny, but still. If we're talking about respect and all...

There's a way to discuss limitations but remaining positive. And I will be bold enough to suggest if you are not positive and excited about what DSLR video means for low-budget/no budget filmmakers, you're not paying attention. You don't have to personally agree or purchase one but the tide has already turned.

I don't know how to sugar coat "You're going to have to cut shots because Moire/aliasing is going to eat them alive." Do you?

And, let's be fair: I think I've spent more on this "revolution" than anyone else in this thread. From the start of it.

 

[Kholi]

This can't be overstated! Because it's easy to do extra takes, people do, sometime (ofttimes) when they're not needed. And as Kholi stated, that takes up valuable time. If you've got a location for a day or two, you've got to make the most of it.

Indeed. Especially the days when you only get a location for oh, six or seven hours. And, in that time, you have to block, light, make-up, wardrobe, re-block, re-light, rehearse, shoot, and be hard-out on the second.


There's no time for ten takes. Unless you've got more of it in your wallet, otherwise known as money. Heeeeee~

I think it's just something you learn, though, actually working in the environment. Projecting makes everything seem a lot easier.

 

[Kholi]

"Low budget idealism" seems to be somewhat of a brainwashing tactic on these forums. These cameras should not be meant to persuade anyone that they are competing with something like a professional tool, RED.

Enjoy the easy access to the innexpensive tools, but don't convince yourself that they are the be all end all bridge between consumer and professional tool. You don't cut hair with hedge clippers, and you won't trim a tree with scissors. Use what's best for the situation and don't live in blissful ignorance.

Let's keep it positive and realistic. No one ever gained anything by convincing themselves of lies to better their ego's and "low budget idealisms". So if there are posts like Kholi's that you would consider negative or rude, it's simply because there have been a plethora of posts just like this one trying to keep the brainwashing alive. It's just a matter of turning the lights on so you can see what's really there.

Cheers.

I generally think it's the manner in which I word my phrases or ideas that come off as negative or rude. It's never the intent. Well, at least when I'm outwardly being rude it's pretty obvious. xD

Jason's right, and I think the lot of us being lined up at the gallows agree, it just comes down to work. If there's a consistent body of work being posted here that shows the "revolution" for what it is, be that bad or good, then that's what it is.

I know that if aliasing, moire, overheating and video output are all taken care of, I'll be repurchasing a 5D or similar, and probably a smaller B-cam. I still use a 7D for very small projects.

 

[Ben_B]

You're right about that. Anything that smells like an anti-DSLR sentence is worth hanging, stabbing, and especially ramming down the throat "BUT HOUSE WAS SHOT ON A 5D! OMG".

I still haven't seen a post detailing the fact that the episode's budget was still more than most any here will ever get a whiff of, and the crew surely wasn't comprised of one man.

Exactly! A lot people are going "oh one of the top shows in the world was shot on a DSLR so that mean's they're perfect." What this really should tell you is that the crew of one of the top shows in the world is good enough to make these cameras work in a professional TV setting. Yes, it's true that that means the potential is there, but that doesn't mean it's easily (or cheaply) tappable.

 

[dcloud]

This thread just wont end........

It went from is this camera better than this, to of course it is better because that other camera is not professional.

That is the reason that started this argument and what the Mods and most people seem to miss the point what happened here. Also how crazy is it that someone can compare a HDSLR to garden tools as opposed to cutting hair clippers?


Nothing positive has come really from this thread. It's like yeah you can use a DSLR but it's not the right tool and this and that. Now you have people who have been working in the industry for so many years saying you need to pay attention to me because of this and that.


Well let me let you "Old Dogs" in on a secret , there is a new wave of film makers that are changing the game. Yes we thought we needed Film, RED but now the living proof is what is being done with these HDSLR cameras. Know your limitations and work around them.

Trust me when I say that I thank this forum, community and everyone else. I never meant any disrespect and if I did I apologize. The final view is like this

DSLR is an excellent tool but to many pros out there , there are limitations that one would generally not use and would "prefer" a better camera for the job.

My point of view and many others is, YES we understand the limitation and we will work around this. We play to the strength of these cameras and deliver the best quality possible. Most people at home and your audience cannot tell the difference between most cameras.


Finally I will say this again, my apologies to everyone let me get back to work.

reading your original post and then reading this post, you're really a troll.:nads:

 

[PaPa]

Wish list:

RED, release a 1080p camera, 35mm sensor for under 5k.

 

[Cieloent]

reading your original post and then reading this post, you're really a troll.:nads:

Must be something in the water your drinking that makes you lack reading comprehension.

Might have a possible project coming up ( crosses fingers ) for an up and coming music artist.

This is something they want to hit the television stations with. I have shot some really good footage with my T2i and have seen major videos broadcasted with a 7D. My question to the community or people who truly are working in the professional industry is.


Would you shoot on a Red Camera or Canon T2i?

I do not own a RED and have never shot on one, but I believe that I can learn to use any piece of gear. Now on the flip side of things we can save some money by using a DSLR and renting some very nice glass and lighting for the shoot.


Opinions please,

Thanks

Basically what this post means is would you shoot on a RED or HDSLR. The feedback which was given is that the RED is a pro cam and an HDSLR is not, so any professional would not use an HDSLR.

That comment right there is what started the arguing. To which I needed to find videos showing that PROS do use an HDSLR for work. All I really wanted to know was how much better a RED camera was to an HDSLR, not that a RED is pro and an HDSLR is not. No matter that Kholi says, he himself took the thread in that direction which was not needed.

I never shot on RED and can only judge by online videos so I simply do not know. Now if this makes me a troll in the mind of people who do not comprehend then there is nothing more that I can say.

I asked the mods to please close this thread because this argument will never stop. I do not want to be banned for stating my opinion. All I will say is this,

HDSLR is not the best camera but I personally think the image quality is very good and more than acceptable for 8 out of 10 people. You can never please everyone and I understand that.

I'm Done here and if people want to speak for years within this thread then so be it, my life and vision is bigger then a topic which got way out of hand


peace

 

[Jason Ramsey]

My concern is that DVXUser may end up being perceived as the grumpy old man "get off my lawn".

I hear you and we can be sensitive to your points to an extent moving forward, but at the same time a lot of this crap is just.... well, let me be blunt... crap... some people just hate us for no good damn reason. Some people look for fights. Some people form opinions and sides based on perceptions not grounded in reality. And, no one (tooting horn) realizes how much thought is put into trying to keep this place useful for all. I'm not talking about camera's here... I'm talking about tone, particularly in the dslr section of this forum which is a stark contrast to the historic tone that has been long established and is what made dvxuser so successful in the first place. And, we just can't worry about what everyone thinks all the time. We have to make tough decisions. There is a lot of crap slung around the net that people latch on to with no real knowledge of what is actually going on (again talking about the atmosphere, not cameras).

I know you see things as an over-abundance of bashing. I can feel where you are coming from to a point... However, I just dont' see it that way (for the most part)... I see a general lack of mutual respect and lack of any attempt for people to behave more considerately and work together. Most of the friction comes from bad internet attitudes.

There are a lot of new members here and they need to be led by example... not overrun the community. B/c when I see new members here asking a question, getting the answer and then hating on someone else for being stupid the very next day for asking a similar question... Or, when industry veterans are referred here looking to learn about dslr's... guys who have shot hollywood films on 35, who ask a question and are either ignored, or labeled as ignorant by some newbie.... This is just ridiculous. Ok... I mean I could go on and on... But, let's just lay it down like this... There ain't a battle against dslr's or any of that sh*t. The problem here is.... one of immaturity. Too many new people at once with no real grasp on how this community has thrived for so long, and a lack of respect and maturity across the board.

We need to raise the maturity level up here... I'm tired of dealing with idiots who steal domain names and carry on pointless internet grudges. and people who have barely shot 10 minutes of footage, and are new to this community and to filmmaking, treating guys with 20 years experience in the industry like they are poo pooing idiots for asking questions and trying to learn about these new products on what is supposed to be the ultimate resource. This is not elitism. This is common sense. When a brand new filmmaker turns someone off of these boards who would have so much knowledge to give them about the filmmaking process, in exchange for their knowledge on dslr's... that's just a big problem.

So... while I acknowledge the perception of some folks that you have pointed out, and will certainly take that into account while we continue to try to grow this place and evolve it (and get some of the sections of this board back in line with our roots), we will also be dropping the axe. The new guys need to learn the ropes or be shown the door. Sorry if you don't like it. People better start showing each other some mutual respect here in the dslr sections and learn to be passionate and debate things without be disagreeable and personal.

dvxuser has a long reputation of (in relative terms) being a very well-behaved place (on the whole) where people commune, share and collaborate, and show each other respect while on these boards. The dslr sections here are just about as far away as we care to get from that... If you have interest in this community as a resource, place to network, and even a place for opportunity, then treat it and its members with respect. otherwise, we're going to start showing people the door. Some folks will get pissed for a while. Sorry about that. gotta trim the fat though. and, that goes for everyone... Don't need someone coming on here just to argue. Don't care if you love or hate the cameras. That's not my concern. My concern is the overall behavior in the dslr sections of the board.

Do your part. lead by example. don't let people make sh*t personal, report posts... People will get the hint eventually. And, i'd rather be left with 30k productive, respectful members who can engage in passionate discourse than 100k people creating a bunch of noise constantly arguing, and attacking each other over the same points over and over...

I'm posting too much, and this thread has been thoroughly hi-jacked

 

[Jason Ramsey]

I asked the mods to please close this thread because this argument will never stop.

Your wish is my command