Canon R5 Announced with 8k

[Guest]

Thats been my phrase for the stupidity of digital cinema gear for the past 2-3 years, one step forward, two or three steps backward. People's priorities are so far out of whack and the manfacturers have
responded to indulge that. Or is it about 2-3 years ago, cameras became so capable for so little money that the manufacturers decided that nobody would buy any more new cameras unless they started
the useless trends of FF, raster size wars, HDR specs that few want, need to understand. It's sort of a cart before the horse conundrum. Is it all the buyers fault? Or the manufacturers?

A lot of what drives the market now is counterintuitive to logic, practical workflows and what clients need for output or care about.

True, you recently mentioning it made it come to mind, as I totally agree with you.

Feels like instead of methodical improvements and actually hitting requested features, they went into this sort of cheese hole tactic, where cameras have incredible features, but few of them are "daily driver" type of improvements. And by the time they figure it out, we'll all be on cell phones. After all, who wants to deal with RED footage in Davinci resolve? BTW, Dan, I may switch to FCPX, as I just hate the way Davinci handles RED footage for simple tasks. I throw an R3D into FCPX and it looks the same way I shot it, but in Resolve I have to jump through so many hoops. Fine for more critical colour grading, but rather annoying for day to day stuff. Also, FCPX proxy workflow is rather seamless.

But back to the cheese holes, in Canon's case, that cheese hole strategy makes a nice eco system. Like they stratified and simplified so well that they accidentally made an awesome eco system.

Like imagine if it were all film, and you had a Aaton minima that shot s35 up to 120fps for hours (aka miles of film), and then a little Bolex looking thing that shot IMAX for up to 20minutes..........

....um, yes please. (ok, it is not film, but nothing is yet, not even Alexa)

 

[ahalpert]

Also, FCPX proxy workflow is rather seamless.

But back to the cheese holes, in Canon's case, that cheese hole strategy makes a nice eco system. Like they stratified and simplified so well that they accidentally made an awesome eco system.

FCPX is the daily driver of NLEs

I dont think Canons ecosystem is really accidental. They're pretty explicit about trying to slot the R5 in as a B/C cam. They're about to launch a couple more cine cameras at evenly spaced price intervals

 

[Guest]

FCPX is the daily driver of NLEs

Haha! love that!

I dont think Canons ecosystem is really accidental. They're pretty explicit about trying to slot the R5 in as a B/C cam. They're about to launch a couple more cine cameras at evenly spaced price intervals

That is what I was gathering as well, if even that. Seems like it is primarily marketed as a stills camera that also has an 8K video function. Not unlike all the 5D's before it.

 

[tull_power]

Apparently the Canon was designed to overheat! Take a look at this article;
https://www.eoshd.com/news/chinese-...ium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+EOSHD+(EOSHD.com)

Considering the ageing Canon 5D Mark III - which was NOT designed for video, can record 3.5k 14bit RAW for as long as the card fills up, you'd expect the brand new 5R to fare better, not FAR WORSE! The article speculates that the thermal constrainsts were done on purpose - to protect the higher end C-series cameras. Most importantly - and this has serious implications - even after improving the thermals, and lowering the temperatures significantly - the Canon would still stop recording video and not recover in a reasonable time. Looks like it's actually an artificial limitation, programmed in the camera's software - disguised as a heat problem!

Looks to me like Canon tried to pull a fast one. How can the tiny Canon EOS M record 2.5k RAW without overheating, and the 5D Mark III do 3.5k RAW continously, again with no heat issues - while the far more modern and expensive R5 overheat in a couple of minutes?

EDIT: Looks like it's been posted already! Still think it merits some discussion though - other Canon cameras had very effective heatsinks / heat disspitation systems, the 1DX Mk III being an example, how come the R5 dosen't even try to dissipate heat through the metal body? There's simply NOTHING to take heat away from the mainboard - this dosen't make sense!

 

[NorBro]

How are the focus transitions?

70-200mm III if interested. At -7 and -4 speed (-4, -3 is how a human would pull on the slower side, IMO).

Video's long, but if you/anyone decide you'd like to learn about AF transitions with one adapted piece of glass, you can see how the camera may react during focus fails (which I left in).

Note: Any touching of the screen to initiate the rack would be less noticeable if the camera was on a tripod rather than a ball head/light stand.

Take 5 is my favorite.

___

One aspect no one is talking about is chroma noise.

Since Canon was hacked a few days ago I haven't been able to access any of their material as all of their sites are down, but I wanted to include some info where they do not recommend using the 5D Mark IV's C-Log above ISO 400 because of possible artifacts showing up.

Do artifacts = chroma noise? IDK. 5D Mark IV had chroma noise too.

Will anyone notice? Maybe not. And if you're planning on basically adding one curve to the C-Log and having vanilla colors then it's not going to affect you much, but start moving through some Hollywood color pipelines and your chroma noise dances along with you. Dropping the 8K into a 4K timeline cleans it up a bit. And LUTs or questionable color grading aren't the problem because you can see the outlines of the noise in the C-Log (although not pronounced yet) just waiting to be amplified no matter what you do (besides sticking to 400 or close by).

___

After my first test weeks ago on the day the camera was released, I said this (page 213):

Oh, man. It almost seems like they coded this camera to overheat (not saying they did) - because I don't know how it's possible that it just couldn't recover eventually.

Something immediately didn't make sense. You could tell that even when you entered certain modes in the camera, your hourglass had flipped.

___

You know what's sad?

This camera is so good. It is so depressing how amazingly good it is and that they just had to ruin it. It's no wonder people like Andrew have lost their minds with Canon (and a hat tip to him for having more moxy than most).

I would have paid twice as much to have normal operating hardware. This hardware. I don't want a C300 Mark III or a C500 Mark II; I want this camera, the R5.

And they ruined it.

 

[DLD]

Philip Bloom joined the "up yours, Canon" brigade. This is turning into a mega disaster for the company.

Of course, on Canon Rumors, it's known as the "overheating hysteria". As we discussed earlier and in the Undone thread, commerce can't suffer. CR hacks Canon merchandise to its members and worships every overpriced and underperforming Canon gear as its raison d'être.

 

[cyvideo]

It also looks like the R5 will have overheating issues and be a jello cam in 4K24p since it oversamples from 8K:

"Even after being completely inactive and turned off for 20 minutes, the camera stops recording 8K after just 8 minutes subsequently once back in action. This is a severe limitation in my view.

Unfortunately this overheating problem isn’t limited just to 8K.

Since the 4K at cinematic frame rates (24p,25p) and at 30p is oversampled from the full 8K sensor output, these too are limited." (EOSHD)

Yes, I read that followed by this teardown on the R5. Some strange things going on inside this camera from a design point of view. I'm no design engineer but common sense engineering knowledge makes me very curious as to how and why some of the component layout decisions were made. Suspicions of firmware time limitations? All a bit unexpected, at least by me from a company like Canon?

Chris Young

https://www.eoshd.com/news/chinese-...ds-artificial-firmware-time-limit/#more-23880

and

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topi...solutions/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-373957

 

[NorBro]

Unexpected from Canon?

That's what they do; they limit their cameras through software. Not saying this facetiously, but as a fact and that's how their business operates.

They have always disabled features, they've cropped, they leave specs out even in $6K cameras...and this one - if true - would take it to another level.

Overheating is okay; everyone can understand it. Especially if you can do everything in your power to extend your own personal recording times. But turning the camera on and essentially a stop watch at the same time is very frustrating. (For the best modes, of course.)

 

[Guest]

All a bit unexpected, at least by me from a company like Canon?

hmmm...

It's pretty much a wide spread thought that Canon does this regularly.

Internet is full of jokes about it.
https://fstoppers.com/originals/canon-just-filed-patent-brand-new-cripple-hammer-466477

 

[Teddy_Dem]

Norbro, thanks for the videos and tests that you have been posting. And I fully agree with you about Canon ruining the camera with the overheating issues. This is the camera that I want as well, I have all EF lenses and even purchased the EF-RF variable ND mount a few months in advance for it (or the Komodo). With the incredible autofocus and IBIS, I would prefer and R5. The footage that I have seen from the R5 and the clips that I have had a chance to color grade have been stunning. The camera is THAT good, and that is the reason there has been such an uproar about the "crippling" of it.

 

[cyvideo]

Unexpected from Canon?

...and this one - if true - would take it to another level... a stopwatch at the same time is very frustrating

Yes, I sort of believe crippling on features but on limiting hardware? That's the bit that surprises me, the latter "stopwatch" aspect you alluded to.

Chris Young

 

[ahalpert]

Apparently the Canon was designed to overheat! Take a look at this article;
https://www.eoshd.com/news/chinese-...ium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+EOSHD+(EOSHD.com)

Considering the ageing Canon 5D Mark III - which was NOT designed for video, can record 3.5k 14bit RAW for as long as the card fills up, you'd expect the brand new 5R to fare better, not FAR WORSE!

I agree with you but I dont think you can make a direct comparison to 5D ML RAW because that used a big crop. A lot of the heat from the R5 is due to full readout from full-frame

 

[tull_power]

I agree with you but I dont think you can make a direct comparison to 5D ML RAW because that used a big crop. A lot of the heat from the R5 is due to full readout from full-frame

The heat mainly comes from the processor as far as I know, irrespective of the sensor area used. Recently, full sensor modes have been added to both the 5D Mark III and the Eos M, the latter with line / column skipping - and both don't suffer from any overheating issues. Also some modes have a reasonable crop and offer a direct sensor readout, again without problems. It's an apples to oranges comparison, as the way RAW data is read and written to the card is probably completely different from how the R5 (and R6) work, yet Magic Lantern provided an effective solution, while Canon themselves couldn't (or wouldn't) manage.... food for thought.

Irrespective of the R5 heat issues, I'd go for the Sony A7SIII...... 8K is overkill, the Canon data rates being absurdly huge (12k BRAW being actually smaller!) the Sony has better dynamic range and is far more practical. From the footage I've downloaded, you can zoom / crop the footage and still deliver in 4k - as it's very very clean. The R5 looks out of this world on paper but misses the mark as a video tool.

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r5-firmware-update-coming-soon-raw-light-to-be-added-cr2/

Further to my post, looks like a 'lite' RAW codec will be added to mitigate the 8k data rates, as well a Clog3 - something a lot of users have cried out for... still no word if the heat issue will be solved though!

 

[Liam Hall]

Apparently the Canon was designed to overheat! Take a look at this article;
https://www.eoshd.com/news/chinese-...ium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+EOSHD+(EOSHD.com)

Considering the ageing Canon 5D Mark III - which was NOT designed for video, can record 3.5k 14bit RAW for as long as the card fills up, you'd expect the brand new 5R to fare better, not FAR WORSE! The article speculates that the thermal constrainsts were done on purpose - to protect the higher end C-series cameras. Most importantly - and this has serious implications - even after improving the thermals, and lowering the temperatures significantly - the Canon would still stop recording video and not recover in a reasonable time. Looks like it's actually an artificial limitation, programmed in the camera's software - disguised as a heat problem!

Looks to me like Canon tried to pull a fast one. How can the tiny Canon EOS M record 2.5k RAW without overheating, and the 5D Mark III do 3.5k RAW continously, again with no heat issues - while the far more modern and expensive R5 overheat in a couple of minutes?

EDIT: Looks like it's been posted already! Still think it merits some discussion though - other Canon cameras had very effective heatsinks / heat disspitation systems, the 1DX Mk III being an example, how come the R5 dosen't even try to dissipate heat through the metal body? There's simply NOTHING to take heat away from the mainboard - this dosen't make sense!

The heat mainly comes from the processor as far as I know, irrespective of the sensor area used. Recently, full sensor modes have been added to both the 5D Mark III and the Eos M, the latter with line / column skipping - and both don't suffer from any overheating issues. Also some modes have a reasonable crop and offer a direct sensor readout, again without problems. It's an apples to oranges comparison, as the way RAW data is read and written to the card is probably completely different from how the R5 (and R6) work, yet Magic Lantern provided an effective solution, while Canon themselves couldn't (or wouldn't) manage.... food for thought.

Irrespective of the R5 heat issues, I'd go for the Sony A7SIII...... 8K is overkill, the Canon data rates being absurdly huge (12k BRAW being actually smaller!) the Sony has better dynamic range and is far more practical. From the footage I've downloaded, you can zoom / crop the footage and still deliver in 4k - as it's very very clean. The R5 looks out of this world on paper but misses the mark as a video tool.

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r5-firmware-update-coming-soon-raw-light-to-be-added-cr2/

Further to my post, looks like a 'lite' RAW codec will be added to mitigate the 8k data rates, as well a Clog3 - something a lot of users have cried out for... still no word if the heat issue will be solved though!

Wild guess; you're not an engineer??

 

[DLD]

Wild guess; you're not an engineer??

Here's a tear down video.

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1U...AAqvUbTmHkX7r5adQ-vLVw_alyuGCLz4&from=seopage

 

[tull_power]

Wild guess; you're not an engineer??

Equally wild guess - you're an engineer??

Do let us know your take on what's going on with the camera then! I did write that probably the way Magic Lantern and the R5 process RAW data from the sensor is completely different - is this the case? From the teardown, it looks like no attempt is made at taking away heat from the processor and sensor - is there something I'm missing?

 

[ahalpert]

So canon rumors says firmware update is coming with:

"Addition of CLog 3
Increased record time limits (but don’t expect a huge boost)"

C-log 3 = big deal (but does this mean no c-log 2?)

Increased recording times - my guess is they will fix the firmware so it starts the stopwatch once you start recording video and you will always be able to get a reliable 20 minutes. Oh, and they might fix that pesky unlimited recording without cards/screen off mode so that it's limited to 20 minutes too

 

[ahalpert]

Hey NorBro - can you use the control ring adapter to adjust autofocus speed?

And do you think native lenses have autofocus fails less than adapted lenses?

 

[DLD]

The firmware shouldn't be all that difficult to hack anyway.

 

[Bassman2003]

Philip Bloom joined the "up yours, Canon" brigade. This is turning into a mega disaster for the company.

Mega disaster or publicity in our modern world? If they chose to fix it, then no disaster and everybody is talking about the camera.

I will wait to believe the C-log3 rumors and see if they take the external recording away. It does appear than adding C-log3 will give the video image at least 1-stop of DR. Quite a big deal for an already great image. The killing of the external recording will be bold move imho. That would be worse than the original overheating. Drama. We need something to occupy our minds.