Canon R5 Announced with 8k
- Thread starter Ken1212
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What everyone forgets to say in these conversations, is that the HDMI placement is bad for video. That is possibly the very biggest flaw in mirrorless bodies.
When people say "I love mirrorless, just as it is, it is perfect for my gimbal" NO YOU DON'T!!! You like the basic form factor, you do not necessarily love the HDMI placement, as that doesn't help the gimbal in any particular way. Just makes the footprint larger by sticking out the side and you have to avoid snagging.
Mirrorless is better than the ZCam box in so many ways. And even without any rigging, a mirrorless camera is hand-holdable. The boxes are not, unless you shoot everything like vintage medium format. So, the boxy Zcam design requires rigging, meaning the things are going to nearly double in size and weight, just to be handhold able. We do need some cameras to have alternate shapes, but for the most part, a camera should be made to interface with human hands.
Rolling shutter is a stills camera issue. It is not a 'mirrorless' issue. So, when people say they hate mirrorless, they are often not talking about form factor. This muddies the debate.
Deakins can go around saying how some old Leica is his favorite camera ever, and everyone will clap and nod in agreement, but some how 'mirrorless' is unacceptable? big fat LOL.
Step 1: if a mirrorless body could house a video sensor and reposition the HDMI and audio ports, that would solve majority of issues we've ever had. We would see a HUGE increase in buys.
For now, I am going to start modding mirrorless cameras. Likely start with the S1H, Fuji XT, and the R5. Going to reroute the I/o ports, and had a shallow plate to the side. I'll be charging about $1K for the mod.
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+1 Sums up exactly how I feel. Though still need to see more footage where the dual gain DR really shines.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I know you're talking about NOW for current users, but if we're hypothetically imagining changes then wireless video and audio for everything will be the future.
No wires.
So the camera box can be any shape and size you'd like, but your signals and data will be transmitted and recorded wirelessly to other pieces of equipment that offer the support (including the camera for audio with shotgun microphones and lavs that all do it).
Lavs should be like paperclips with no wires...32-bit floating point sent back to the camera!
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I just caught up on this thread, wanted to add my 2 cents:
My Lumix S1 is great on the gimbal. All it lacks for my purposes is AF, and I get by manually. I don't mind the HDMI sticking out the side, it never gets in my way. I basically leave the S1 on my Ronin-s in a Sachtler Dr Bag and tighten the connections periodically. For handheld stuff or XLR inputs, etc, I have a C300i and an FS7.
I really like the trend of little brother cameras coming out that can be more nimble/versatile or go on a gimbal (Alexa Mini, Komodo, Canon/Sony mirrorless). Ideally, the sensor and imaging pipeline would match the larger camera exactly, but I think Arri is probably the only one who pulls that off.
We can argue about design flaws of the mirrorless bodies, but we also benefit from the cheaper prices that come with mass marketing them to photographers.
My S1 is far from perfect but I don't know if the R5 would move me to sell it and buy that because the S1 is adequate and I don't think the R5 would make me more money. (Although it would be good from a marketing perspective to have brand-matching A and B camera, which is why I'm more interested in an a7S3 to go with my FS7). Obviously, everyone has different needs.
And if I had to, I could shoot a movie for Netflix or the big screen on the S1. Let's not forget that The Possession of Hannah Grace (2018) was shot on an A7SII and grossed $43 million.
My Lumix S1 is great on the gimbal. All it lacks for my purposes is AF, and I get by manually. I don't mind the HDMI sticking out the side, it never gets in my way. I basically leave the S1 on my Ronin-s in a Sachtler Dr Bag and tighten the connections periodically. For handheld stuff or XLR inputs, etc, I have a C300i and an FS7.
I really like the trend of little brother cameras coming out that can be more nimble/versatile or go on a gimbal (Alexa Mini, Komodo, Canon/Sony mirrorless). Ideally, the sensor and imaging pipeline would match the larger camera exactly, but I think Arri is probably the only one who pulls that off.
We can argue about design flaws of the mirrorless bodies, but we also benefit from the cheaper prices that come with mass marketing them to photographers.
My S1 is far from perfect but I don't know if the R5 would move me to sell it and buy that because the S1 is adequate and I don't think the R5 would make me more money. (Although it would be good from a marketing perspective to have brand-matching A and B camera, which is why I'm more interested in an a7S3 to go with my FS7). Obviously, everyone has different needs.
And if I had to, I could shoot a movie for Netflix or the big screen on the S1. Let's not forget that The Possession of Hannah Grace (2018) was shot on an A7SII and grossed $43 million.
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Question. Is the HDMI placement sticking out the side where you prefer it to be?
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Yeah, I'll join you in smoking a bowl.
ahalpert
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It's not *ideal* but it's better than some other places it could be. I never operate this particular camera on my shoulder, so it never sticks out towards the operator.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Maybe not in our lifetimes, but it's obviously the future. (We already have simple wireless A/V transmission now.)
And getting caught up in these mirrorless port specs is a bit silly...companies need to build cameras certain ways. It's not like making a sandwich.
I mean...what are the options?
It's on the left side or it's on the right side. (Not much deep thought is necessary here.)
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Ok. Yeah, I get into these discussions, and people always look for the bright side. Meanwhile, in the last 10 years no one has fixed the placement of the HDMI.
I think the discussions around this get muddied with big swings away from the obvious: they should change the place for the HDMI on hybrids, or make a video centric mirrorless. Yet, we shooters keep neutralizing any statements that support the idea of switching the HDMI port to somewhere better.
Some say it is too expensive, yet camera companies are making all kinds of video cameras under $5K. And I am sure a mirrorless body with the HDMI relocated would out sell most of those video bodies. So, the whole economies of scale argument is unfortunate.
And then there are those that dislike complaining, and just want to go shoot. They take a certain sense of pride in being able to not get ruffled. But kind of distracts from the truth. And things could actually be better.
It's a state of technology thing. Nearly every digital cinema camera made today has a CMOS sensor with a rolling shutter in it. Even Alexas, most Reds (i.e. all of them except the Komodo), and even most of Sony's CineAltas have rolling shutters.
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Rock solid, not susceptible to interference, doesn't increase heat in a small body that struggles with heat dissipation... yeah, I want no wires too, but current tech has a lot off issues. Though fantastic for things like jib work, or as a client monitor. But not for the EVF or on camera 7" monitor. Actually, several cameras have already begun to include wireless video in body. Which is a fantastic option. But we still unfortunately need a physical connection for reliability. But, yeah, I am with you, would be nice some day. Until then, I'll be happy with better cable management. Aka no operator side HDMI port sticking straight out. Mini HDMI isn't even remotely robust. Adding a cage helps, but the ease with which a manufacturer could sold this issue in body is so much more simple then all our work arounds. Heck for all the money we'd save not having to buy add-ons, we could have enough to pay the camera companies more for the "improvements". long over due.
But if they do ever make reliable and low heat wireless, I am all for it. (we haven't even discuss the health concerns relate to wireless, but since this is a hypothetical technology, we don't need to worry about it)
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I meant really bad rolling shutter that video people complain about in mirrorless and DSLR. Stills cameras can use a mechanical shutter, so rolling shutter is less of an issue for them, so it is more common to have bad RS numbers on stills cameras.
Actually, Red Monstro RS is pretty noticeable. But I cannot imagine anything being quite as bad as the 1DC in 4K or the Nikon D90. Yet, they made for completely wonderful stills cameras.
Design parameters are different is what I meant.
Rolling shutter isn't caused by the form factor. It is caused by the design requirements of stills being more lenient with RS than a video camera sensor design would be allowed. So, I have heard people say how much they hate mirrorless or DSLR, and the reason they give me is RS.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I think the best way to look at it is that the target customers and the majority user base for these cameras simply does not care about HDMI or its location.
Occasionally you'll get someone passionate on a forum like yourself hoping/creating change, but it's a very bottom-of-the-list afterthought specification for photography cameras that provide video features. (If there are 5,000 that care then there are 500,000 that don't.)
At best, a full HDMI would be nice to see on everything.
P.S. The Sony a6300/a6500 may have the worst video RS in history!
Occasionally you'll get someone passionate on a forum like yourself hoping/creating change, but it's a very bottom-of-the-list afterthought specification for photography cameras that provide video features. (If there are 5,000 that care then there are 500,000 that don't.)
At best, a full HDMI would be nice to see on everything.
P.S. The Sony a6300/a6500 may have the worst video RS in history!
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Silly? How so?
There have been numerous examples of camera bodies and price brackets for small run cameras that could have made changes. The static thinking that things have to be this way or that way is false. There are very simple and cheap ways of making things better. Tilta made significant improvements to the BM pockets for a few hundred bucks. The changes that these companies would make would not be drastically expensive. And they are already making some cameras in the smaller markets that are cheap.
Quite a few, but only a couple that make sense given their size.NorBro said:
The left side and the right side are both bad. Bottom is not good. But we still have top, back, and front. We also have operator side, but right angled down or back.NorBro said:
But switching gears, and getting into dreaming, there are some more unconventional ways of doing things now that we have move to mirrorless.
The EVF can go anywhere. The top bump that used to house the prisms could now be a hub, similar to those hot shoe hubs. But smaller, just HDMI and audio. Since those are the only ones that video people tend to need out of the way. Not mind blowing stuff. just re-routing some wires with internal wires.
On the Sony F35, the BNC ports on the back have a small internal HD-SDI rated cable that plugs into the back of the BNC and then connects to the video card. It isn't like someone has to go and change anything. Just an internal wire and a slight re-housing.
Silly right?
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NorBro
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But I wish you the best!
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No one is saying that all mirrorless cameras should be made for video people. Just that if Panasonic is going to go and make the S1H, and tout the video features and get ProRes raw, seems like a simple port relocation would help people see more reasons to spend $4K for a mirrorless camera. Might even make that camera work $5K. But even still, Black magic goes and makes the pockets which are video specific, and fixed screen, you don't think someone is going to put a smallHD on it when you design something like that?
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That is the easy answer. Sure, things are moving along as they do. Doesn't mean it is the way it has to be.