Canon Fires Back: 4K DSLR, (that was a fast)

yoclay said:
Here's the deal.
Canon has made us wait too long.
When they finally coughed something up it was way out of our reach.
There is no 5D form factor replacement even anywhere in sight. We are going way beyond the traditional market cycle.
Teasing us with announcements for another 1D type DSLR that won't even hit the market until the end of next year is pathetic.
(Heck the 1DX isn't even slated until March)
It clearly represents scrambling after a RED blindside.
It is not even in Canon's nature to make such an open ended press release.
"We are working on it."
This is a marketing failure.
Canon, get of your stoop, come down to the average Joe in a forum like this and deliver in the beginning of next year.
Or lose your market.
End of story.

Come January 1st. RED will be receiving a check from my personal account.
On the forum that I help moderate I will recommend that others do the same unless something very real and very affordable is in the pipeline NOW.

Put up or shut up time.
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RED teased us with camera that didn't come until 3 years later. Even more pathetic.
 
maranfilms said:
The scarlet will most likely have better sales than the 300c. But I feel they decieved us to. I mean it began with 3k, for 3k. Now it's 3k for 20k. at least close to 20k for a shootable setup. And Canon with their big world announcement that most people can't afford. If they said, something to the effect of "big announcement for big bank accounts, well then that would have felt much better then a announcement for an overpriced silly looking half a camera.

I don't know, it seems to me that Panisonic has stayed true to their users, they know and understand their demographic, I mean their product manager comes to the board to help their customers. I never really thought much of it till know, but when you think about it, that in it's self is huge, and it shows they listen, they care. And they truely want to put affordable tools out there for the low budget indi filmmakers, they get were on low budgets. look at the gh2, yeah different part of the company, but with the same logic.

I guess i'm really dissapointed. As of now, I'm not paying a bit of attention to these stupid announcements that have no bearing on me what so ever. I think the majority of us thought they were going to unveil the camera we have been asking for for three years. just goes to show, they could give a rats ass about what their customers want and need. It wasn't Martin Scorsese that made the canon dslr's successful, it was their consumers, guys like Bloom, shane, and Charters. Canon really dropped the ball.

ok, im done ranting, sorry.
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If they care so much then why have they still not come to the table with an S35 in this class of camera? Barry practically begged them on his knees and they still wouldn't. Seems to me Panasonic has been withholding as much as the rest of them.

The rules changed yesterday. You want to be a player, you either come to the table with an S35 and a serious codec in an affordable price range as a part of your lineup or you get left behind.
 
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All the clues were there that this was intended for the professional Hollywood community. They were announcing this at Paramount Studios. They invited Scorsese. They opened a brand new tech and service service in Hollywood intended for pros. All of the early rumors were more or less true. The camera sensor is 4K and it records to 1080p. The codec is 4:2:2 50 Mbps, 60p in only 720p and the LCD is detachable. All of that came true and matched the early rumors.
 
Darky Mikado said:
Where does this 20k figure come from? Seriously, it's 14k for the shooting package - 15k if you want an extra 64gb ssd. That's it. 20K would be quite a few extra goodies.
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You still need lenses. You can use cheap still lenses, but cinema glass is expensive. The 3K Scarlet fixed would've at least eliminated several to many thousands of dollars needed for lenses.
 
yoclay said:
If they care so much then why have they still not come to the table with an S35 in this class of camera? Barry practically begged them on his knees and they still wouldn't. Seems to me Panasonic has been withholding as much as the rest of them.
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Remember, Panasonic was the first of the big manufacturers to release a large-sensor video camera. I suspect they are working on a 4K or better camera.
 
What is the name of that petition site? Like the one where they had all the pros who were upset by FCPX sign? Maybe we should do a "5D users who will NOT be buying a C300"... just to show them how much they missed the mark.
 
GH2user said:
What is the name of that petition site? Like the one where they had all the pros who were upset by FCPX sign? Maybe we should do a "5D users who will NOT be buying a C300"... just to show them how much they missed the mark.
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They didn't miss the mark if they weren't targeting you guys! The camera is well north of $10K, has no AF or AE. It has cinema quality imaging with log recording. They put it together fast, using a new sensor but existing tech from the XF305.

The camera you want (5D upgrade or AF100/FS100 competitor) just isn't here yet. We've got to be patient. Or just buy a different camera if you need one now.
 
Piolet said:
They didn't miss the mark if they weren't targeting you guys!
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But they implied that they were, with a few statements they made... something to the effect of "based on the 5D's unexpected success for video, and the feedback we got for improvement, the C300 was put into production." So they missed. Even for a $20,000 camera, they missed. For $20k you can get RAW or 4:4:4 now... the C300 is just too under-featured, and will stay that way if people keep defending it.

The tech inside has a HUGE mark-up. A codec from a $3000 camcorder and (essentially) the sensor from a $800 DSLR all the sudden costs 6x as much because there's a "C" badge on it? Get real. This is BS.

At least they got the form-factor and magnesium construction right... plastic-bodied cameras are not "pro" in my book. 1 step forward and two steps back.
 
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I think the Canon's street price will put it closer to the working shooting package of the RED, However the specs of the Canon compared to the RED still will make it seem a little overpriced.
 
GH2user said:
But they implied that they were, with a few statements they made... something to the effect of "based on the 5D's unexpected success for video, and the feedback we got for improvement, the C300 was put into production." So they missed. Even for a $20,000 camera, they missed. For $20k you can get RAW or 4:4:4 now... the C300 is just too under-featured, and will stay that way if people keep defending it.

The tech inside has a HUGE mark-up. A codec from a $3000 camcorder and (essentially) the sensor from a $800 DSLR all the sudden costs 6x as much because there's a "C" badge on it? Get real. This is BS.

At least they got the form-factor and magnesium construction right... plastic-bodied cameras are not "pro" in my book. 1 step forward and two steps back.
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DVXUser needs a like button for this post. This thing is mad over priced.
 
Tzedekh said:
Remember, Panasonic was the first of the big manufacturers to release a large-sensor video camera. I suspect they are working on a 4K or better camera.
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I'll be REAL money they are not. Panasonic has NEVER EVER played in the cinema game. Broadcast yes. Tiny indie market, yes. But NEVER have they touched cinema markets, and there is no reason to think they will now. EVERYONE has announced cameras in this market already. Panasonic's BEST move would be to try to figure out how to stuff someone's S35 sensor in their $6k camera, and give it an HDMI out and leverage AJA or someone for a recorder.
 
cinebuddy said:
DVXUser needs a like button for this post. This thing is mad over priced.
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And under-speced. It would have been a miss 3 years ago because the RED One kills it by a mile. I'd buy a used RED One over this Canon every day of the week. If you're dropping $20k on a body that takes PL glass, you aren't shooting with lights from Home Depot and need ISO 6400. This thing is DOA.
 
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I laugh at the notion that shooting on a DSLR is really that difficult, because then I look at almost EVERY photo of a professional set, and I have YET to ever see a camera from ANY maker that isn't loaded down with 5 million pieces of additional gear to get it to where they want it. This includes the Red One, Alexa, F3, AF100, FS100. This whole notion that any camera from a cinema perspective is ready to go out of the box is a false one in terms of actual application that I've seen.

Indy productions? Sure, I see it all the time, but I also see a lot of the results from those productions, and I'll tell you, not that impressive.

Look at the behind the scenes on the C300 shots. Is that just a $20k camera? No.

I use an external LCD with my FS100. I use a shoulder mount. I use different handles. I used these same sorts of things with my AF100 when I had it. How many AF100's have you seen with a Matte box on the front of it?

I'd say the EPIC is a professional camera, but I don't see ND filter built in. Do all film cameras have ND built in? Not that I am aware of.

EPIC doesn't even come with an LCD, you have to buy separate.

Sure, you have to add equipment to a DSLR to make them more usable, but honestly, if Canon adds XLR and a few other goodies to their DSLR cameras, they'd be perfect.

But even if they didn't, I've been on PLENTY of sets where a separate recorder, that is VASTLY superior, is getting the audio. The audio systems in the FS100 and AF100 aren't that great, fidelity wise. They are mostly good enough for me, but when I use a dedicated recorder, the sounds are so much nicer.

You know what really sucks? No internal mic on the FS100. So if I have someone run sound, if I want an easy track to line up the audio with using Pluralize, I have to hook up a mic on the FS100 which personally is a pain. AF100 at least had a mic. C300, no mic built in. Scarlet-X, no mic built in. Just one more pain in the neck.

Given I ALWAYS used an external LCD with my AF100 and FS100, since I really don't like the ones built in, there is really no difference here.

Since I always have some sort of cage/shouldermount for the AF100/FS100 just like most pro-shooters seem to have, does that really make a difference for the DSLR? No. Not really.

Given the size and weight of my 7D, I can tell you, I miss it when I shoot. It make getting into tight places or doing crazy shots so much fun because I didn't have this MONSTER camera all the time trying to get into little places, or have to build sets to accommodate it.

The C300/Scarlet is a testament that people want a smaller camera. They want options about where things like LCD are gonna go. If you need a bigger body, you can add that. But I sold my AF100 because I needed a camera that could get lighter and smaller and it could not do that for me, sadly.

If you want to talk about the pain of shooting on a DSLR, for me it was NEVER the size. It was some simple things that COULD be added to even the current line OUTSIDE of sensor performance. Things like:

- No AGC
- File length limits
- Heating limits
- Zebras
- additional focusing aids
- output resolution or even a signal at all when filming
- waveform or live histogram
- audio meters

Those aren't all huge difficult things to do. Some cameras have fixed some of those, some haven't. THAT is the issue for me. Sure, SDI, XLR would help, but even miniXLR would be a compromise I could live with.

I hope that this mystery VDSLR delivers all this, and I hope they make an S35 version of one as well. Remember, it's FullFrame, so not the same as the C300.
 
VGurcu said:
But C300 isn't a camera for Hollywood either. C300 cant compete with Epic or Alexa spec wise.
and for Hollywood 20K, 60K or 80 grand for a camera all the same; amounts to nothing...

The way C300 priced & crippled doomed to fail, hence my petition here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?266156-open-letter-to-CANON-A-new-strategy
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C300 competes and beats the Epic in one critical area: Reliability. Bloom says the Reliability of his Epic is "Hideous" in his words.
 
f64manray said:
C300 competes and beats the Epic in one critical area: Reliability. Bloom says the Reliability of his Epic is "Hideous" in his words.
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Good point. You might consider this:

So, if you are Canon, Sony, and Panasonic, you can:

1. Hope than Red "falls down": Can't manufacture fast enough. Product isn't reliable enough. Customers get burned and give up and come back.

OR

2. Step up: Read the writing on the wall. There is a mad man in your market and he's going to throw in the "kitchen sink" at a price point that you've never imagined with specs your engineers weep over. If you don't compete....more and more of your customers will become their customers. Time to break out of your old "shell" and become something new.

OR

3. Sell rotten tomatoes: Professionals will buy it because it says "Canon". Sure, it smells like rancid milk with flies (20K, 4:2:0), but hey, we've been doing this a while and we've done just fine. We'll continue to pump out product...people will buy it, no biggie. (Besides, most professionals are too dumb to tell the difference anyway.)

OR

4. Get out: Not enough profit in this sector anymore. We want out. (AKA: HP computer hardware division) ...I know they're back BTW....(HP) But hey....they (Canon, Sony, Panny) can get out and still be multi-Billion dollar Titans in the industry. Fair enough.

I personally suspect it will be #3, a feeble attempt at #2, followed by #4. We'll see....
 
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