C200: Canon event at CineGear 2019

chris f

chris f

Veteran
I attended the Canon seminar on Saturday evening which was a panel of documentary/reality filmmakers from Jay Leno's Garage, Deadliest Catch, etc.. While it was really interesting to hear everyone's experiences my overall feeling walking away from the event is that I'd be pretty surprised if Canon comes out with another Cinema EOS camera in the next 12 months.

At the end of the seminar Tim Smith asked the filmmakers what they'd like to see Canon make next and from what I remember the answers were a video zoom lens that had a wider-to-longer focal range so you could shoot a show/doc with one lens and then other answer was some sort of satelite/bluetooth time code sync for multicam shoots and the ability to monitor other cameras on your shoot wirelessly through the monitor on your camera (like having all your cams on the same network so you can check all your other angles when shooting multi cams by yourself).

I was tempted to run up and grab the mic and make all of our requests known.....

But hearing Tim wax nostalgic over the 5DMKII and one of the cinematographers saying that the C300 has still been his most use camera and the fact that there were no real serious discussions on what could be next on the horizon or talks of the future made me think that nothing's coming anytime soon.... :(

I feel like if they stole a few features from the EVA 1 (5.7 sensor, in-camera sensor stabilization), put it into a C200 body, added timecode sync, dual CFAST slots, and proper SDI outputs they pretty much wouldn't need to make another camera in that range for another 5+ years.

As a whole, it seems that the camera market is really slowing down and that release cycles are going to go back to where they were 10+ years ago - at least for mid-range pro cameras.
 
It's not just Canon. What about the camera Panasonic just released? I'm thinking, what where they thinking? I registered for but didn't bother to go to Cinegear this year. I'm in last camera syndrome mode with the C200. Heck. I still have a 5DMKII that I use. I really wish the 18-80 were T2.8. Then they'd have a least a little bit of my attention.
 
Yea, I feel like if they could even get the 18-80 to T3.5-3.8ish I'd consider buying it. Just rented it last week for a 4-day doc and it's really a great lens and f/4 is about where I prefer to be for doc stuff anyways, but I just have to leave it in the bag once the sun goes down.
 
IMO, Canon tends to hold cards pretty close to their kimonos. The next big decision in their cinema line will have to come from their executive suit. EF or R? APS-C or FF?

The answers will likely be R & FF. And 6K. And CRL.
 
Based upon my pre NAB conversation with Canon marketing brass, I think Chris nailed it. I knew there were no new cameras for NAB or CineGear and with the layoffs and facility closing for Canon, its obvious that the company is shifting its priorities from photography and pro video to other more profitable markets. With the radical price reduction of the Varicam LT and the only new camera intro being the S1H at $4k, I think you are seeing some similar overall business strategy from Panasonic. Does the world really need an EVA 2? Only Mitch and Co know as far as if their sales projections on the EVA 1 are what they want them to be and if there are untapped customers for a new EVA 2.

As far as Sony, their exhibit at Cine Gear was generally far more crowded than Canon or Panasonics exhibits but they didn't show any new products and most of the push was about the Venice. No new FS7 MKIII, not a peep about an A7 SIII. We'll eventually see an XH-2 and an XT-4 from Fuji but they aren't in a hurry, the XT-3 has sold exceptionally well over the past 6-8 months for them and they were concentrating on their new Premista Cine glass. BMD has had good success with the BMPCC 4K and they seem to selling some UMP V2s so I wouldn't expect much from them for new cameras.

It's 2019 and the reckoning is finally here. You can't have ongoing, unprecedented new camera introductions for a market that isn't growing at the same pace as it once was. Hopefully this will put the hammer down on the 8K and 16K stupidity for a while and people will slowly realize that none of that is needed.
 
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But the problem isn't that there can't be new cameras but that any new camera seems to be so far ahead of a last year's camera, which is itself so far ahead of the camera before it. IOW, who'd buy a C200 for $7,500 or C300 MKIII for $10,000 if S1H blows them out on specs (or, at least, some specs). So, then the only thing that remains for the manufacturers is to get rid of the remaining inventory and to replace it with a new model.

These new Sony sensors were announced in September, 2018 (and others may have been later on but I can't seem to find any source for that) and they are not made to stay on the shelf. I fully expect to see A7RIV with a 61.2 MPX sensor and 8K video. A7SIII seems trickier because S1H seems to have stolen its specs ... with the possible exception of the AI auto focus, CFexpress slots, X-Ocn codec and built-in ND's, which exist on other Sony models in its class. Which, when you think about it, is a pretty solid retort from a team in the same league.

And Canon would have to seek its own landing spot, somewhere in the $8,000-$10,000 range. Where 8K and internal Raw must be on the same menu.
 
I always say that Canon is not forced to step up the game by their own users. Their specs are usually worse than competition but they are popular anyways. Imagine you are Canon and your customers are hapilly buying underspecs products and they are actually using it for work with good results. Why would you introduce new product? This strategy makes sense. If it is good or bad is up to you.
 
Up until 4-5 years ago, Sony was barely in the consumer-entry level pro photo/video business. Once they got in, however, they have done so well, the head of their Alpha division was promoted into the mobile phone group. And he got that new gig because Sony now leads the full frame niche and is using it to dominate the other formats.

And they make sensors for almost everyone.

And Canon is yielding its previously captured markets.
 
puredrifting said:
It's 2019 and the reckoning is finally here. You can't have ongoing, unprecedented new camera introductions for a market that isn't growing at the same pace as it once was. Hopefully this will put the hammer down on the 8K and 16K stupidity for a while and people will slowly realize that none of that is needed.
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Exactly, it's overkill. 99 percent of us will never need more than 4K (and often no more than HD) to do our work, unless it's insane VFX. The cinema cameras we need are already out there with 13+ stops of DR and decent codecs, so maybe the camera companies are realizing that there's a plateau that has been reached...
 
The plateau that's been reached is the technical limitations one...for now.

6K and 8K cameras will no doubt flood the market within the next 2 years.

If the hardware & knowledge is available, someone is going to offer it (already did) and then everyone will follow, no matter if it's necessary or not.

And not just for marketing. But to make something that can and needs to be made, needs to be accomplished.
 
I think it is tough to make a market for 8k (let me be wrong for the sake of camera divisions), but I can see a clever marketing guy at a camera company making a market for full frame. If they can get clients to demand it, then you have to provide it. Sure, not everyone will jump on ship, but they probably can get enough to make a business out of it.

For sports broadcast, 8k could make sense. Panasonic is pitching an 8k camera locked off on a full football field shot and then the truck could just take a crop from wherever they wanted to show the action. The pitch being that it eliminated cameras and operators. Imagine getting 8k on a 2/3" sensor.
 
The only thing I'm crazy about more or as much as cameras is football, and that is not happening. People would go insane.

Hockey fans went crazy when they decided to track/outline the puck, and now golf fans aren't having it either. This would be 10,000 worse. You need cameras on all parts of the field whether they are operated by humans or robots. The only thing this would be good for is for instant replays in which other angles may have missed the play or were obstructed by natural circumstances.
 
I see you have no romance for pan and scan.

I agree. I don't see how it eliminates camera positions. Maybe it eliminates camera operators, but you still need someone to run a joystick in the truck and we know how well that works.
 
Sidebar...Ive noticed that both BH and Adorama have the c200 bundled with a Shogun (which is very cool) but both retailers stipulate "no returns or exchanges" I find that odd. Anyone? New firmware with codec coming? Dunno...Hampster wheel is turning
 
One other thing that I forgot to mention was that one of the filmmakers suggested that Canon put a C300-like camera inside of the old XL-2 and that kind of peaked interest across the panel. And then Tim Smith told a story about how he was at a smaller concert recently and the in-house video feed was being operated with an XL-2. Granted this panel was for doc/reality but the main focus moving forward seemed to be "What would help you get the shot?" and not "How can we get better quality?"
 
John Foundas said:
Sidebar...Ive noticed that both BH and Adorama have the c200 bundled with a Shogun (which is very cool) but both retailers stipulate "no returns or exchanges" I find that odd. Anyone? New firmware with codec coming? Dunno...Hampster wheel is turning
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Most Canon cinema products are like that if you check other Canon cameras.

Someone "on the inside" on here once said it's because of the high return rate on them and people buying them just to use them for 28-29 days (especially during the C300 days when it was an industry-standard) only to return them just before the return policy expires.

I don't know.
 
The Flame itself is $200 off ($800 instead of $1000). But this raises the question of "why C200?". Of the two eligible Canon models, C200 has sufficient internal codec in CRL. Maybe Atomos is seeking to clear its inventory too because the arriving cameras will be similarly capable of quality internal codec and bitrate with the CFexpress cards (and HEVC).

And continuing with the "clearing the inventory" theme, B&H still has the original C100 without the DPAF upgrade and that's a seven year old model.
 
Nothing new...they add recorders or other gear to their own camera kits/bundles every year.

Nothing more than an incentive. (The camera is old in today's world.)

As far as Atomos, they just announced a new line (Neon) with 8K ProRes RAW support...so.
 
Canon Cinema EOS cameras have always been "no returns" from every retailer. It's a Canon Cinema thing.
 
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