Well said! We have been telling camera manufacturers for years that we would like to have a camera that is fully functional upon release. And now Canon makes one (Just 3-4 months wait on 4.5K RAW). For those of us who have battled through SUP 2 Color Science with Alexa, or Sony's "Block Party" XAVC codec, (soon to arrive XAVC Class 480 upgrade should put codec on par with Canon), no LUT in the EVF in certain modes on F55, EVF issues and Anamorphic modes on the Alexa Mini, just to name a few, very much appreciate what looks like a camera we can take out of the box and shoot with without major issues. Canon is by no means immune (C300mk2 CLOG2 & sensor flare issues, f.ex.), but overall Canon do deliver more feature complete cameras than the rest of the industry, Arri included. It just feels a bit strange to include Arri in the 'below Canon club', but I've had too many battles with the Alexa Mini to not do so. Sorry Arri! I hope the SXT will correct this record!!!
C500: Canon C700 Announced.
- Thread starter Liam Hall
- Start date
Well said! We have been telling camera manufacturers for years that we would like to have a camera that is fully functional upon release. And now Canon makes one (Just 3-4 months wait on 4.5K RAW). For those of us who have battled through SUP 2 Color Science with Alexa, or Sony's "Block Party" XAVC codec, (soon to arrive XAVC Class 480 upgrade should put codec on par with Canon), no LUT in the EVF in certain modes on F55, EVF issues and Anamorphic modes on the Alexa Mini, just to name a few, very much appreciate what looks like a camera we can take out of the box and shoot with without major issues. Canon is by no means immune (C300mk2 CLOG2 & sensor flare issues, f.ex.), but overall Canon do deliver more feature complete cameras than the rest of the industry, Arri included. It just feels a bit strange to include Arri in the 'below Canon club', but I've had too many battles with the Alexa Mini to not do so. Sorry Arri! I hope the SXT will correct this record!!!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Parrot
I think you are making sense. To me these cameras stand or fall on the little details..
in no order
-Proxies
-Lutts or not to different crew
-usable sound pots
-time taken to engage HFR
The little things make a camera into a 'machine' or not
I think you are making sense. To me these cameras stand or fall on the little details..
in no order
-Proxies
-Lutts or not to different crew
-usable sound pots
-time taken to engage HFR
The little things make a camera into a 'machine' or not
indiawilds
Veteran
Thanks for pointing out. Interesting info and perspective. I was under the impression is the CFast 2.0 cards are good enough for RAW. Frankly speaking given that the Codex can record 4K60p, I think many smaller productions will just prefer that. It will solve as well as speed up workflow which will save money, leaving RAW for big boys. So in that context 6k investment for Codex can be recovered fast.
On another note, when people say Canon is not innovating, it is not a correct statement because every year Canon is in the top five companies in terms of registering patents. I think RED does ProRes only upto 2K and not 4K. Can someone confirm?
PS: heard this fanboyish statement but it appears to be valid upto a large extent- "Canon is like a well rounded mature guy, whom ultimately hot girls marry after having crush on other men".
NorBro
Major Contributor
RED shoots 4K ProRes in their more expensive cameras.
Regarding the C700, I guess it's going to depend on your final product.
If you (like you who's reading this right now) are a producer/director/creator/shareholder with a big budget trying to make some big moves with your up-and-coming CINEMATIC project (film or television, but not talk shows, sports, etc.), which camera would you choose?
I can't form a responsible opinion on the C700's image because I don't know what it will look like, but let's say it looks close to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MeEKCYvApM
...then I can never see its place in the cinema world where this is its competition...
https://vimeo.com/182057093 (obviously not the only camera used, but I like that specific video for the Mini, lol)
Regarding the C700, I guess it's going to depend on your final product.
If you (like you who's reading this right now) are a producer/director/creator/shareholder with a big budget trying to make some big moves with your up-and-coming CINEMATIC project (film or television, but not talk shows, sports, etc.), which camera would you choose?
I can't form a responsible opinion on the C700's image because I don't know what it will look like, but let's say it looks close to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MeEKCYvApM
...then I can never see its place in the cinema world where this is its competition...
https://vimeo.com/182057093 (obviously not the only camera used, but I like that specific video for the Mini, lol)
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Weapon 8K & Weapon 6K CarbonFiber does 4K ProRes at 30fps.
For standardized 4K monitoring I think you need a Redcast module.....?
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Matt Turner
Well-known member
I'd bet that every single shot in that Alexa Mini video had a higher budget than the entire C700 video.
rob norton
Veteran
You can't form a responsible opinion because you're comparing a single tiny production in Japan to monster commercial campaigns and feature films. The Arri reel is amazing but it gets me excited about video production in general rather than any of their cameras.
It's also the Codex media. And card readers. And software + drivers. And maintaining computers with old OS until Codex gets around to update their drivers. It adds up!
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NorBro
Major Contributor
I wouldn't form a worthy opinion yet even if the Japanese shoot was a monster commercial/production because the camera isn't out yet and I haven't had it in my own hands. I just needed something to compare it to...but I wouldn't be surprised if it has its classic (beautiful, but signature) Canon look.
So I'm saying...if it looks like that...then I don't see it competing in cinema. (I'm also not considering grading.)
Regardless, Canon has had 5 years to convince decision-makers to use their cameras in cinema. And they certainly have and do, but come on...
I love all cinema cameras and I think they are all visually superior in their own way, but you don't have to be an expert to see that ARRI has somehow managed to create something no one else has been able to replicate.
rob norton
Veteran
Fair enough!
I know promotional film quality has been spoken about before, but for showing a supposed production workhorse, these Japanese garden walk throughs or maker videos (someone making something) are ridiculous. They're perfect for cameras like the Sony fs5 where single operators and very small crews could find themselves in similar situations but the c700 is going after the narrative/cinema format. This means as far as samples they're up against the prettiest images in cinema and television history and their promotional films should strive to match the best images we've seen. It probably comes down to the company not wanting to spend $$ but I think it's ironic nonetheless.
Anyway, people really like Canon skin tones, it'll be interesting to see if it makes a dent in that department or if like Grug says it's appealing enough to sway productions because of post workflow advantages.
I know promotional film quality has been spoken about before, but for showing a supposed production workhorse, these Japanese garden walk throughs or maker videos (someone making something) are ridiculous. They're perfect for cameras like the Sony fs5 where single operators and very small crews could find themselves in similar situations but the c700 is going after the narrative/cinema format. This means as far as samples they're up against the prettiest images in cinema and television history and their promotional films should strive to match the best images we've seen. It probably comes down to the company not wanting to spend $$ but I think it's ironic nonetheless.
Anyway, people really like Canon skin tones, it'll be interesting to see if it makes a dent in that department or if like Grug says it's appealing enough to sway productions because of post workflow advantages.
Ya, like the 90%+ market share in the narrative/scripted TV production. Leaves no room for anyone else to come even close. But I don't think C700 is shooting for ARRI's crown anyway.
brettsherman
Well-known member
Then what is Canon shooting for? It's not a owner/operator camera. It's not a documentary camera (excepting relatively rare high-end scripted documentaries). I'm not saying the C700 isn't a great camera, I just don't see it as profitable for Canon. Even if they make some profit it on it, we're talking marginal compared to what they got with C100/C300 Mark I's. It just makes me wonder if the Canon's camera division is run by cinema fan boys that just want to play with the big boys.
At least now that the C700 is out, Canon could focus their attention on the FS7/FS5 market where they are getting their a&&es handed to them by Sony. Of course it's hoping too much they'll also concentrate on the VDSLR market too. But one can dream.
Well, that's what many of us are still wondering about. The high budget scripted TV where ARRI dominates is a bridge too far for them (SXT is over $80,000 retail for body only and is a go-to camera for most DP's) but, where someone needs 4K and good low light performance, C700 will come in handy.
I mentioned on the main page thread that Canon needs to adopt its full auto focus photo zooms to a higher end pro market a la Angenieux and Zeiss. Right now, they have ~ $20,000 manuals. If they do a cine conversion of 28-70 and 16-24 for under $10,000 each, they might make a compelling combo with this unit.
Jim Martin
DVXuser Sponsor
If you remember, the 18-80mm (24-105mm equivalent) is the start of a series of Compact Servos made by the cinema lens division. According to everything I read and from what I heard in the interviews from NAB when this lens was announced, they will target the most popular EF lenses that people are using to shoot video with...meaning it would probably be a 16-35 and 70-200 versions (and more) coming down the pipe.
Jim Martin
EVSonline.com
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That makes perfect sense. The new Angies will have a servo zoom added to them by Band Pro. Compared to the $40,000+ Cabrio line, it's quite a bargain.
For owner ops- a functionally kitted Scarlet Weapon would run me $26,840, with media. Without the Motion mount and without a Rocket X. Since Epic Weapons (or whatever they call them) are now north of $70K- yes, the C700 can easily fall under owner/op rig. As does the Varicam LT, Sony F5, FS7, C300 Mkii etc. But until we actually have C700s to test and shoot with, it's all speculation. For example, if I shot extensively with the C500 and outboard recorder, I would have never ever bought one. Not to use as an A camera.
Will the C700 120 fps look better than F5 or FS7 120 fps? Who knows. I do strongly suspect low light on the C700 will be better than all current Sony cameras. (and all Arri cameras for that matter). So the only question I care about is: Which camera will clients ask for more often, and be willing to pay an acceptable kit rental rate? I think it'll come down to postproduction workflow and costs. Whatever camera looks good and saves money at the end of the day will be asked for. Which is why I never shoot with Reds now unless the producer/ production company owns one- postproduction costs/time. There are many choices, and quite a few lower cost ones, FS7 in particular. All too often an Amira is getting bumped for an FS7. Not my choice, producer's choice (and their check book).
Having said that if Canon can lower the price to match Sony F55 with EVF at current discounts, that would make the buy easier to swallow, ie: under $30K, body, EVF, handgrip etc.
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Matt Turner
Well-known member
Well it does give them a high end working platform to R&D and trickle down stuff into the next generation, much like the C500 sold less numbers but would have informed the design of the C300 MKII.
Global shutter for instance might make it to the C300 MKIII or IV, and the first generation R&D would have been done with the C700.
brettsherman
Well-known member
I'm sure that's how they justify losing money on the C700 at corporate. Plus there's the "it's our flagship camera," which supposedly will drive people to buy their lower end cameras. I just don't know if either is really true. Would it not be easier to recoup R&D expenditures on a model that would sell 10X more units? Especially since Canon seem incapable of releasing an updated lower market camera in a timely enough manner to not get left behind.
I can assure you, I'm no Sony fan boy. I own a C300 MK I and C100 MK I and have $20K+ budgeted to buy two new 4K cameras this fiscal year. I'd love for it to be a Canon. But I can't see getting any current Canon offering over the FS7 (which is already 2 years old). By the time Canon releases a camera to compete with the FS7, Sony will have moved on to the next generation already and I'll have had to pull the trigger on new cameras.