FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
Why wouldn't the FS7 guy use ND to get exposure instead of lowering ISO?
C300: Canon C300 mkII
- Thread starter AndreeOnline
- Start date
Why wouldn't the FS7 guy use ND to get exposure instead of lowering ISO?
jm.gardiner
Well-known member
We did that on one of the shoots and the image was a bit noisy for my taste. The other time we shot green screen and log+high ISO is the enemy of green screen. Talent stepped on set with a white jacket. Everything was blown, had to adjust everything.
One year ago I was really close to going for C300 instead of FS700 (even despite that fact of almost double the price). It was unique: no other camera would be documentary making ready as this: low light capabilities, form factor, WEATHER SEALING (that is big one for me). Then later last year FS7 came along... Now it's very hard to spend all that dollar (double the money) on C300II when FS7 is as capable as C300II is. If it will be 20-30% more maaaaaybe... But double the price??
Don't get me wrong, if Canon would be the same (or slightly more) price I would go for C300II no questions asked.
Crazy thing is that for FS7 in my country there is A WAITING LIST. YES, after so many months after the release. It takes weeks to get one and dealers don't even know when will be next delivery.
Don't get me wrong, if Canon would be the same (or slightly more) price I would go for C300II no questions asked.
Crazy thing is that for FS7 in my country there is A WAITING LIST. YES, after so many months after the release. It takes weeks to get one and dealers don't even know when will be next delivery.
jm.gardiner
Well-known member
FS7 is a capable camera and the price is certainly nice. Based on my needs and experience it's looking like I'll wait for the C300mk2.
What would you point as the biggest caveats of FS7? Maybe I have wrong thinking and should wait for that C300II - make money for that difference by renting it from time to time
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
C300 Mark II vs FS7 for my line of work...
Advnatage of the C300 Mark II:
Incredible auto-focus: A big deal since I do a lot of solo Steadicam work without a remote focus puller. Very useful for all other forms of shooting as well.
Form factor: I prefer short cameras with an LCD near the back for slider, monopod, and Glidecam work, as opposed at the front of a longer camera. Side grip on the C300 Mark II is also a lot better positioned for that type of work; I rarely need shoulder mount, so a shoulder mount form factor is not good for me. C300 Mark II can be turned into a shoulder mount via third party accessories, while the FS7 can't be turned into a non-shoulder mount shaped camera, so C300 Mark II wins for versatility.
Weight: C300 is around 8.5 lbs with a still lens while FS7 is closer to 9 or 10 lbs with all necessities.
Viewfinder: The C300 actually has one, while the FS7 pretends to have one but ultimately only has an LCD with a Z-finder type solution which hearkens back to the DSLR days. Adding a third party viewfinder + third party small monitor would be overly cumbersome.
Memory: CFast is less expensive than XQD. The largest CFast is 256GB for $1000 vs the largest XQD is $800 for 128GB, so CFast will also hold twice as much data for internal recording.
Image quality: I'm usually not impressed with both the noise levels, colors, and overall image quality of FS7 footage I've seen online, while the original C300 and C100 regularly deliver in this regard.
Dynamic Range: Perhaps a little better if it's really 15 stops.
Low Light: Better from what I've read.
Native Lens Mount for EF lenses: No need for messing with adapters so there is always a secure mount which works flawlessly.
Bug Free: Probably won't have the various bugs that the FS7 has had such as the slow aperture wheel, disappearing waveform, etc.; I haven't kept up so I don't know how much of that they have fixed.
Quicker Button Options: Manually changing white balance (Kelvin) on Sony cameras has always been a pain, while on C-series it's quick and simple. C-series probably has a lot more other button options and speed of use in these terms as well.
Brand Name: Producers ask for C-series cameras more than Sony cameras.
More Compact RAW Recording: C300 Mark II doesn't require an additional back piece like the FS7 does in addition to an external recorder to get RAW.
Advantages of the FS7:
Slow motion: Higher FPS with no crop. Though, I've heard that the Sony line skipping method reduces resolution, so perhaps the C300 Mark II's cropped 120 fps will look better.
More data rate options: FS7 records 4:2:0 4K at 100 mbps like the GH4 does, which for event work like I often do, where 4K would be useful, is really good because I often don't need 10 bit 4:2:2 and would prefer smaller file sizes. The C300 Mark II's lowest data rate for 4K is either around 220 mbps or 400 mbps with the latter being particularly high. Anyone know the lowest data rate on the C300 Mark II for 4K?
Full Frame Capable: With Speed Booster can get full-frame for an extra stop in your lenses and the full-frame look. Not that big of a deal to me since full frame to me means harder to focus and have to use larger lenses, with Super35 being the standard for Hollywood and not full-frame, but it is a nice option to have.
Price: On one hand $8K makes the FS7 more affordable, while on the other hand it means many more people can afford it so there's more competition in that price bracket. Owning a better $16K cam ideally suited for higher end doc jobs could lead to both more work and a higher day rate, so in a sense the C300 Mark II's higher price has some advantages. A lot of people ask me how much my camera costs and there is a certain value in being able to tell them a higher number, particularly when you're bidding for a bigger budget project. I was talking to one local guy I've worked with who was planning to get a C300 Mark II if it was $8K, but at $16K I doubt he'll be able to afford it, which essentially means less competition for those who can afford it such as myself.
Advnatage of the C300 Mark II:
Incredible auto-focus: A big deal since I do a lot of solo Steadicam work without a remote focus puller. Very useful for all other forms of shooting as well.
Form factor: I prefer short cameras with an LCD near the back for slider, monopod, and Glidecam work, as opposed at the front of a longer camera. Side grip on the C300 Mark II is also a lot better positioned for that type of work; I rarely need shoulder mount, so a shoulder mount form factor is not good for me. C300 Mark II can be turned into a shoulder mount via third party accessories, while the FS7 can't be turned into a non-shoulder mount shaped camera, so C300 Mark II wins for versatility.
Weight: C300 is around 8.5 lbs with a still lens while FS7 is closer to 9 or 10 lbs with all necessities.
Viewfinder: The C300 actually has one, while the FS7 pretends to have one but ultimately only has an LCD with a Z-finder type solution which hearkens back to the DSLR days. Adding a third party viewfinder + third party small monitor would be overly cumbersome.
Memory: CFast is less expensive than XQD. The largest CFast is 256GB for $1000 vs the largest XQD is $800 for 128GB, so CFast will also hold twice as much data for internal recording.
Image quality: I'm usually not impressed with both the noise levels, colors, and overall image quality of FS7 footage I've seen online, while the original C300 and C100 regularly deliver in this regard.
Dynamic Range: Perhaps a little better if it's really 15 stops.
Low Light: Better from what I've read.
Native Lens Mount for EF lenses: No need for messing with adapters so there is always a secure mount which works flawlessly.
Bug Free: Probably won't have the various bugs that the FS7 has had such as the slow aperture wheel, disappearing waveform, etc.; I haven't kept up so I don't know how much of that they have fixed.
Quicker Button Options: Manually changing white balance (Kelvin) on Sony cameras has always been a pain, while on C-series it's quick and simple. C-series probably has a lot more other button options and speed of use in these terms as well.
Brand Name: Producers ask for C-series cameras more than Sony cameras.
More Compact RAW Recording: C300 Mark II doesn't require an additional back piece like the FS7 does in addition to an external recorder to get RAW.
Advantages of the FS7:
Slow motion: Higher FPS with no crop. Though, I've heard that the Sony line skipping method reduces resolution, so perhaps the C300 Mark II's cropped 120 fps will look better.
More data rate options: FS7 records 4:2:0 4K at 100 mbps like the GH4 does, which for event work like I often do, where 4K would be useful, is really good because I often don't need 10 bit 4:2:2 and would prefer smaller file sizes. The C300 Mark II's lowest data rate for 4K is either around 220 mbps or 400 mbps with the latter being particularly high. Anyone know the lowest data rate on the C300 Mark II for 4K?
Full Frame Capable: With Speed Booster can get full-frame for an extra stop in your lenses and the full-frame look. Not that big of a deal to me since full frame to me means harder to focus and have to use larger lenses, with Super35 being the standard for Hollywood and not full-frame, but it is a nice option to have.
Price: On one hand $8K makes the FS7 more affordable, while on the other hand it means many more people can afford it so there's more competition in that price bracket. Owning a better $16K cam ideally suited for higher end doc jobs could lead to both more work and a higher day rate, so in a sense the C300 Mark II's higher price has some advantages. A lot of people ask me how much my camera costs and there is a certain value in being able to tell them a higher number, particularly when you're bidding for a bigger budget project. I was talking to one local guy I've worked with who was planning to get a C300 Mark II if it was $8K, but at $16K I doubt he'll be able to afford it, which essentially means less competition for those who can afford it such as myself.
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jm.gardiner
Well-known member
I own a C300 so I'm certainly biased, but here we go.
- The FS7 menu is sluggish. To me the layout of the buttons on the side make no sense. They're still using the same antiquated 3 stage switcher for ISO and WB.
- A red tally light facing forward, this is nitpicking I know i can be turned off, but again it feels a antiquated to me.
- Lens mount, not as good as advertised. Everytime I've used the FS7 with EF lenses there's a mount issue. Either the camera won't communicate with the lens or in the case of large EF lenses and PL lenses they're so heavy that the weight shifts the back focus. A lens support helps this, but suddenly your run and gun camera starts to need things you didn't think it needed.
- Timecode, I use it everyday for my tv clients. On the C300 it's right on the camera no issues. The FS7 you need to add the sony box to get it. increasing the size of the camera and ruling out gimbal+timecode, right when I need it most.
- No Wide DR mode. A lot of clients don't want Log footage. So if you can't shoot log on the canon you've got wide DR, I couldn't find a pleasing version of that on the Sony.
- A high native iso is a bit of a headache, as there's a bit too much noise and as previously mentioned when you rate the camera lower the highlights take a dive.
- ND wheel is a bit clumsy, running and gunning with the camera I turned the filter as I walked through a door to a different lighting scenario and didn't notice until moments later after my eyes adjusted the filter had only half switched and I could see the edge of the filter on screen. I think canon came up with a very elegant solution with the electronic motorized filter box.
- Color, I'm not a canon color snob, but one thing I'm increasingly noticing is lip color. On Sony, panasonics and some variation of the Red Dragon they make people's lip color look like they're wearing lip stick. It's the weirdest thing to me. I have a panasonic LX100 it does it and I've seen it on almost every sony camera outside the F55/65.
- I've learned there is no free lunch with high FPS. Moire and pixel binning starts happening after 72fps (i think, can't remember from the tests a friend did)
- Price, cheap is good, but that also means it'll lose it's rental value quickly. Sony camera's seem to be hot for about 6 months then when the newer cheaper version comes out. Just look at the F5 when the FS7 came out or the F3 when the FS700 came out.
- Proprietary Media, I know a dozen people sitting on thousands of dollars of P2 cards and the original sxs cards. Canon does non-proprietary media. All my CF Cards for my C300 can be used in various other devices. The market will also drive the price of CFast Cards down, while Sony will control the price point on whatever media you're buying.
- I shoot diverse projects and knowing the visual limitations/aesthetics of the different cameras out there is important, they're all tools and this is a business. I'm not likely to shoot a documentary on a Red. I won't use a Sony on a narrative because no director I've ever met or worked with has asked for one. Wether the color perception is real or perceived that rules Sony out of a lot of work in my book and I'm not going to argue to use a Sony camera. I think the new VariCam35 is one of the best cameras on the market, but no one's asking for it and if you're going to kit up a camera that large and pricey, might as well just shoot alexa/amira.
If you haven't already rent an FS7 for a project and put it through it's paces. It's not the camera for me. As with the mark 1 the C300mk2 seems to check nearly all my boxes for what I look for in a camera to purchase.
- The FS7 menu is sluggish. To me the layout of the buttons on the side make no sense. They're still using the same antiquated 3 stage switcher for ISO and WB.
- A red tally light facing forward, this is nitpicking I know i can be turned off, but again it feels a antiquated to me.
- Lens mount, not as good as advertised. Everytime I've used the FS7 with EF lenses there's a mount issue. Either the camera won't communicate with the lens or in the case of large EF lenses and PL lenses they're so heavy that the weight shifts the back focus. A lens support helps this, but suddenly your run and gun camera starts to need things you didn't think it needed.
- Timecode, I use it everyday for my tv clients. On the C300 it's right on the camera no issues. The FS7 you need to add the sony box to get it. increasing the size of the camera and ruling out gimbal+timecode, right when I need it most.
- No Wide DR mode. A lot of clients don't want Log footage. So if you can't shoot log on the canon you've got wide DR, I couldn't find a pleasing version of that on the Sony.
- A high native iso is a bit of a headache, as there's a bit too much noise and as previously mentioned when you rate the camera lower the highlights take a dive.
- ND wheel is a bit clumsy, running and gunning with the camera I turned the filter as I walked through a door to a different lighting scenario and didn't notice until moments later after my eyes adjusted the filter had only half switched and I could see the edge of the filter on screen. I think canon came up with a very elegant solution with the electronic motorized filter box.
- Color, I'm not a canon color snob, but one thing I'm increasingly noticing is lip color. On Sony, panasonics and some variation of the Red Dragon they make people's lip color look like they're wearing lip stick. It's the weirdest thing to me. I have a panasonic LX100 it does it and I've seen it on almost every sony camera outside the F55/65.
- I've learned there is no free lunch with high FPS. Moire and pixel binning starts happening after 72fps (i think, can't remember from the tests a friend did)
- Price, cheap is good, but that also means it'll lose it's rental value quickly. Sony camera's seem to be hot for about 6 months then when the newer cheaper version comes out. Just look at the F5 when the FS7 came out or the F3 when the FS700 came out.
- Proprietary Media, I know a dozen people sitting on thousands of dollars of P2 cards and the original sxs cards. Canon does non-proprietary media. All my CF Cards for my C300 can be used in various other devices. The market will also drive the price of CFast Cards down, while Sony will control the price point on whatever media you're buying.
- I shoot diverse projects and knowing the visual limitations/aesthetics of the different cameras out there is important, they're all tools and this is a business. I'm not likely to shoot a documentary on a Red. I won't use a Sony on a narrative because no director I've ever met or worked with has asked for one. Wether the color perception is real or perceived that rules Sony out of a lot of work in my book and I'm not going to argue to use a Sony camera. I think the new VariCam35 is one of the best cameras on the market, but no one's asking for it and if you're going to kit up a camera that large and pricey, might as well just shoot alexa/amira.
If you haven't already rent an FS7 for a project and put it through it's paces. It's not the camera for me. As with the mark 1 the C300mk2 seems to check nearly all my boxes for what I look for in a camera to purchase.
remsyatassi
Well-known member
I think there is a trust with Canon that the features will work and the camera won't be glitchy. That's actually quite valuable, as is build quality.
I don't think you can go wrong either way, but renting when necessary is also a good option with these cameras.
I don't think you can go wrong either way, but renting when necessary is also a good option with these cameras.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Great and informative post JM. Thanks!
Agree with a lot of what you are saying!
Except that XQD 2.0 is proprietary media. It is not! XQD is an open standard supported by the Compact Flash Association just like CFast. XQD is also an upgradeable standard, unlike CFast 2.0, which is the last iteration of that standard. Sony XQD2 is same price & capacity as Arri approved Sandisk CFast2, $6.25/GB. Some (like me) will want their CFast cards to be interchangeable with Amira & Alexa.
Interchangeable memory cards are going to work out nicely on set with Amira as A-cam and C300mk2 as drone cam or C-cam. With lots of BM & Atomos gear there might be some kind of resale market too? At least for a bit.
However, I wonder how this will affect the stickiness to the Canon brand when Canon needs something faster than 500Mbytes/s write and everybody needs to buy another new standard of memory cards all over again. Customers tend to sour on that. With Canon already selling 50+ MPixel cameras that time can't be too far away.
I also find it a bit funny that people on filmmaker forums think CFast is the best thing since sliced bread, while on techie forums they are scratching their heads wondering why Canon would adapt a technology that Apple abandoned 2 years ago.
And btw, I did place a preliminary order a C300mk2.
And I'm buying CFast cards knowing they will probably be completely obsolete by the time C300mk3 comes around.
jm.gardiner
Well-known member
Good to know about the XQD cards. I just haven't seen any other camera outside sony.
I think Canon made a good decision on the C-Fast cards. Basically if Arri uses them it's a good sign they'll be around a while. Arri certainly gave SxS a longer life than Sony did, when was the last time you saw a P2 card on set though?
And if we're going to compare cameras lets take a look at Amira at around 50k out the door and it's 4k is uprezzed with limited fps and no raw option. It's a already a huge success due to the color/simplicity/no-nonsense build/alexa legacy. I agree if the canon alexa/LUT comes even close to matching those cameras its going to be pretty amazing.
Now to see how much the crop factor is at 120fps and how much is it going to cost me to change my mount every other month!
@parrot maybe we'll run into eachother on a multicam C300mk2 shoot later this year!
I think Canon made a good decision on the C-Fast cards. Basically if Arri uses them it's a good sign they'll be around a while. Arri certainly gave SxS a longer life than Sony did, when was the last time you saw a P2 card on set though?
And if we're going to compare cameras lets take a look at Amira at around 50k out the door and it's 4k is uprezzed with limited fps and no raw option. It's a already a huge success due to the color/simplicity/no-nonsense build/alexa legacy. I agree if the canon alexa/LUT comes even close to matching those cameras its going to be pretty amazing.
Now to see how much the crop factor is at 120fps and how much is it going to cost me to change my mount every other month!
@parrot maybe we'll run into eachother on a multicam C300mk2 shoot later this year!
AndreeOnline
Veteran
I don't think you have to worry about that any time soon. Think back on how long CF-cards have been used in cameras.
The new SATA based CFast cards will be able to deliver speeds close to 600MB/s when the time comes. My guess is they will stick around for a while.
Hopefully, when the C300 mkII is released they will already have come done some in price.
IIRC, only Nikon and Sony are major coalition members of the QXD circle ... and Nikon hasn't really done anything on that front.
As to the media tech in general - faster, bigger, smaller.
http://hothardware.com/news/samsung...nology-on-a-tiny-m2-stick#csfAh4qOyUDwZkTB.99
As to the media tech in general - faster, bigger, smaller.
http://hothardware.com/news/samsung...nology-on-a-tiny-m2-stick#csfAh4qOyUDwZkTB.99
Spartacus
Veteran
I always hear the argument: No one hires me for my camera.
I on the other hand, especially on larger projects, have never had a case, were camera and acquisition format haven't been an essential part of planning/preproduction. You also discuss which lights you use and expect the sound department to bring high end mics, even if Rode gets the job done.
While this is true for all established brands, owning or having access to a C300 often shortens that discussion to a "Cool. That's covered."
This is the one disappointment I have with the C300MII. No 60p in 4K internally. Higher frame rates in 4K are expected from a C500 successor, but 60p should just be there.
I hope, with all the focus on the dual Digic DV5 chips, this will be a payable upgrade further down the road...
anatusa
Veteran
seems like C300II will be able to do 4K “half RAW” recording at 100p, 120p with odyssey
[h=3]Canon C500/C300 MKII[/h] Canon Cinema RAW data recording:
4K RAW recording 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, 60p
QHD RAW recording 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p, 60p
4K “half RAW” recording at 100p, 120p
Apple ProRes recording:
4K RAW->4K Apple ProRes recording 24p, 25p, 30p (50p and 60p coming soon)
QHD RAW->UHD Apple ProRes recording 24p, 25p, 30p (50p and 60p coming soon)
Note: C500/C300 MKII 2K 12-bit RGB video modes are supported without the Odyssey RAW Bundle
https://convergent-design.com/compa...w-record-options-into-odyssey-raw-bundle.html
CF cards have been going through many upgrades. The C300mk1 was introduced with the last iteration of CF cards, UDMA7. The C300mk2 was introduced with the last iteration of CFast, version 2.0. I fully expect the C300mk3 to use another new card standard, probably not XQD, but a 4 lane PCI-Express based standard...
The economics for CFast 2.0 in the C300mk2 works out ok for here and now. But I don't think CFast 2.0 will stick around for as long as CF. And I think that embracing CFast in all of Canon's cameras could create some brand stickiness problems for Canon down the line when they have to switch again due to too short turnaround of standards. I think it should be pretty obvious that there's some very interesting things that can be done with 50+ MPixel cameras if we could write to the media at f.ex. 3000Mbytes/s or 5000Mbytes/s... (By comparison the new 2TB Codex drive for Alexa 65 is marketed at 2,500Mbytes/s.)
Many SSD makers and analysts thought that 2013 would be the last hurrah for SATA. But then there were delays and SATA is still here. So I think that when the full transition to PCI-Express based memory happens it will come fast and furious. The updated Samsung SM951 that DLD is linking to is a good example. Although I think that this SSD would probably only sustain 700-800Mbytes/s write for in-camera use. That's still very good by today's standards. (The key word is cooling, which is always in short supply in our cameras. Just read the Amira SUP2 release notes on which slot to place your CFast card if you are running high speed...)
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AndreeOnline
Veteran
Not that it matters, but I don't agree. The reason for change between C300 and C300 mkII is the change from HD to 4k (with quality codecs) obviously. I don't see Canon rushing to 8k or whatever for the mkIII. CFast 2.0 doesn't saturate the bus. We'll see similar generation upgrades as with CF cards.
SSDs are about to blow our minds once again, leaving SATA behind. I'm running a single SM951 in my 2009 Mac Pro at 1450/1600MB/s speeds via a PCIe adapter. A single 1TB blade. Not a RAID.
Recently did a few shoots on the VariCam. Saw a number of them regularly. They're Panasonic. Who has shot on a Panasonic product recently is probably more to the point. If you're in ENG you would have, however Im talking TVC / Narrative.
Varicam35 is an excellent camera, though we aren't talking about that here.
Cards, drives, whatever are always going to need to get faster for the data speeds we want to put on them, that's a given - you can't expect the to be still used in 3-5 years if your updating cameras in that lifecycle.
cdevarona
Active member
Well, finally got through reading all 12 pages of this thread. Here are my 2 cents.
C300, Alexa, URSA, CION, RED, blah blah blah. I think some of you are focusing too much on the minute details. I think the real question is.. DO YOU NEED 4k? Do you absolutely need 15dr?. Look I get it, im not saying the c300mkii is not worth it. If I could choose which cam to use on my next narrative, Id use the c300mkii.
To give some perspective, I just came across this clip from a canon sponsored c100mkii shoot. Here it is.
https://vimeo.com/124166263
If this shooter had a c300mkii would it make a better picture.. ofcourse it would.. Did he really need it though? This looks great to me. What im trying to say is. I still think the c300mki is relevant. Atleast for another year. If you have one you could still milk it for $.
Im not exactly trying to compare the c100mkii to the c300mkii nor to any camera, I think what Im trying to do here is just again explain that you can make a great picture with a toaster if you know what you are doing.
****, I rather this video than the new c300mkii sponsored vid. Its the shooter, not so much the cam..
Finally, Reason for this post is, Im having trouble choosing between the c300mki and the new c300mkii. Do I need 4k? It sure would be nice. But I cant justify the price at the moment. Im looking forward to seeing another film sample by canon. And this time hopefully by a capable crew, and a RAW download. Listening canon?
C300, Alexa, URSA, CION, RED, blah blah blah. I think some of you are focusing too much on the minute details. I think the real question is.. DO YOU NEED 4k? Do you absolutely need 15dr?. Look I get it, im not saying the c300mkii is not worth it. If I could choose which cam to use on my next narrative, Id use the c300mkii.
To give some perspective, I just came across this clip from a canon sponsored c100mkii shoot. Here it is.
https://vimeo.com/124166263
If this shooter had a c300mkii would it make a better picture.. ofcourse it would.. Did he really need it though? This looks great to me. What im trying to say is. I still think the c300mki is relevant. Atleast for another year. If you have one you could still milk it for $.
Im not exactly trying to compare the c100mkii to the c300mkii nor to any camera, I think what Im trying to do here is just again explain that you can make a great picture with a toaster if you know what you are doing.
****, I rather this video than the new c300mkii sponsored vid. Its the shooter, not so much the cam..
Finally, Reason for this post is, Im having trouble choosing between the c300mki and the new c300mkii. Do I need 4k? It sure would be nice. But I cant justify the price at the moment. Im looking forward to seeing another film sample by canon. And this time hopefully by a capable crew, and a RAW download. Listening canon?
That makes me want C300II...
(HAVE TO have better image then C100II)
That's funny: C100II is selling C300II at this moment, haha
Edit:
I just watched BTS of making that "Trick shot" and some of the raw material inserts in it make me believe that there was some mistake in the export or grading or something else. It looks WAY better that in the final short.
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